Twocubdad Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 Boy Rooster, if anyone ever claims that BSA isn't a diverse organizations, just point out to them that you and I are both members! I can't disagree more with your assertion that Scouting is simply "a means for the chartering organization to achieve its goals." I'm preparing for our annual pack planning conference this weekend and the first item in the packet is a copy of the BSA mission statement: "The Mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law." I can't find a mission statement for our CO, but it lists its priorities for members as "Accepting Christ as Saviour, prayer, faithful attendance, active ministry, scraficial giving and The Great Commission." If our Scout program is simply a means to the CO's objectives, I've got a lot of explaining to do to a couple Jewish families. And we're sure wasting a lot of time on campouts, Pinewood Derbies, and flag folding. We would be much more effective if we simply directed all our Scouts to Sunday School and combined day camp with vacation bible school. I'm not saying there is no common ground between the mission of the BSA and our CO, obviously there is. But I don't see any basis for the notion that the goals of the BSA are subservient to those of its chartering organizations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 "I think that all boys need these opportunities and it is a shame if some are rejected simply because they are a minority faith." This is the kind of rhetoric that sidetracks these conversations and obscures the truth. Nowhere did anyone (including the BSA) so much as infer that this was only for 'majority' religions. This has NOTHING to do with the religious faith of the chartering organization. In fact, as has been stated, it does not even have to be a religion based CO at all. This is merely the owners of the unit being allowed to limit membership in that particular unit to its own youth members. Remember the whole conversation about "freedom of association"? This is part of it. If you have a pool in your back yard that you paid for, you maintain, you own, then you can let anyone you choose to swim in it for whatever reason you choose. Are there some boys in the neighborhood you don't want in your yard? Maybe. If so you have the right to say so. If you were the conductor of the school choir can any student join or only those who live in your school district? The Chartering Organization of a scout unit is no different. The right to free association is not a right of the majority, it is a right that any private citizen or organization enjoys. This is not a them and us situation. It's just us. ""The BSA recognizes the religious elements in the training of a member, it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that training." (emphasis on absolutely nonsectarian) "The BSA does not define what constitutes belief in God...." "The BSA does not require membership in a religious organization...." "The BSA respects the convictions of those ... without formal membership in religious organizations." All true. But you need to make the distinction between the BSA and the Chartering Organization. The BSA is non-sectarian in its membership and training, the BSA does not require membership in a specific religious organization (it does however require a belief in and service to God). But that doesn't mean the Co can't be sectarian, just that the BSA cannot. The BSA will not turn away a person for not being Christian, or for not being Hindu. That does not mean that the Buddhist temple that charters the troop cannot refuse your membership for not being a Buddhist. In fact a CO can refuse anyones membership for whatever reason they want. It's their pool, they don't have to let anyone in they don't want. "Freedom of association" How does a CO change their focus to a specific group to serve? Well technically all they have to do is make the decision and do it. I can't imagine anyone would actually be so callous as to do it that way, and in over 30 years and volunteering in more than a few councils I have never heard of it happening. However it is their right to do so if they should so choose. I can guarantee that the local district volunteers and professionals would begin a flurry of activity to relocate the released scouts or find new charter organizations if it happened. Most units that have restricted membership either begin that way or change over through attrition. Charter organizations are in this for the good of the youth too. There is nothing wrong with them choosing to focus on the youth of their membership or congregation if they so choose. That has always been part of the BSA's charter agreement and a fundamental element of the BSA's Congressional Charter. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Old Guy Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 " but the Parish School kids just will not leave Scouts in their school alone without picking on them unmercifully." Oh, for the good old days when if Scout was getting picked on, other Scouts would explain the meaning of Friendly and Courteous to the malefactor with the points punctuated by a good thumping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster7 Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 This just in... Ice has formed in the utmost southern hemisphere known as H***. I hesitate to report that it appears that Bob and I not only agree but have posted very similar thoughts on this topic. Of course, having said this, I'm sure Bob will find something to disagree with in my previous post. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twocubdad Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 So if COs have the right to accept or deny membership for any reason, how does BSA enforce its policy against descrimination based on race or disability? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Rooster, you are the second person in as many days to make such a comment. Ed also thinks it is a momentous occassion because he believes he and I have agreed. I have never asked or expected anyone to agree with me or given an opinion in order to agree with someone else. The awe inspiring thing is not that the two of you have agreed with me, but that for a brief moment in history you have both joined me in agreeing with and accepting an element of the scouting program. Welcome to the fold, we have been hoping you you visit. Stay as long as you can. Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster7 Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 So if COs have the right to accept or deny membership for any reason, how does BSA enforce its policy against descrimination based on race or disability? They (the BSA) are careful about approving charters. They don't allow hate groups or immoral organizations to have charters (i.e., the Klan, NAMBLA, etc.).(This message has been edited by Rooster7) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Bob, Actually you agreed with Rooster & I not the other way. Hope that's ok with you, Rooster! Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Ed If that's what you need to believe in order to follow the scouting program then I can live with that. Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Bob, I don't need to believe that at all! I finally figured out why you have such a hard time agreeing with me. You are humor-impaired! Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Fat Old Guy, No-one else seems to have noticed so, although I sympathize with scouts who are teased at school, I'm not ready to endorse the way of our 'good old days'. Remember, "violence is the last resort of the incompetent." Anyone out there recognize that quote? OGE, my money's on you, maybe you too, littlebillie. Amazingly, a couple of my scouts did a while back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 "Humor impaired"? Me? Not at all Ed. I think that some of the board members that I swap messages with like OGE, Dteele and others will will even support me on that. Just becasue I didn't resond with a LOL to your post don't think I did not enjoy the humor of it. Believe me Ed when I say I get a good laugh out of almost everything you post. Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster7 Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Ed, Isn't it amazing how quickly ice can melt? Tell those guys in H*** to cancel the parka order. (This message has been edited by Rooster7) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Rooster, Dang! I was hoping for a pink parka, too! Alright I'll call them. Bob, I was right - you are humor impaired! How do I know! Your last post! Don't quit your day job (unless it has something to do with humor) Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 Ed, they can order mine in 'rainbow', or as they say in the Old Testament, a coat of many colors. Also, don't go too hard on Bob White. I have often tried to view what he writes as containing the dry humor of the English. Especially the imperial way he hands down his pronouncements. After all, he DID use the smiley face, I'm not sure but it has to be for just about the first time. Man I don't know about you but it sure made my day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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