Question for Bob White

[littlebillie]

(I doubt that this is the first time THAT'S been used as a title!)

 

Anyway.

 

With the current tempest in the Episcopal tea-pot, what might possibly happen concerning the associated religious insignia and the Scout uniform? Would the presence of a gay bishop, in and of itself, be seen any differently than the UU position?

 

The news I'm seeing reads like the odds are on confirmation, so this is a arguably a bit more than idle what-if...

 

thanks for any thoughts you can share.

 

 

 

[dsteele]

I'm not Bob White, but I'll field the question anyway.

 

Unless the Episcopal Church changes the requirements of the award to something contrary to the values of the BSA, I doubt the existance of a gay bishop will change anything with the religious awards of the church.

 

DS

[littlebillie]

wouldn't that be the Epsicopal acceptance of gay leadership, that "something contrary to the values of the BSA"? Similarly, would the presence of a gay priest affect a church's ability to become a CO? I think the waters are a-muddyin'...

[Advisor FB]

While the approval of the openly gay bishop would seem to be at odds with the BSA policy, the bishop would not be a Scout leader, so therefor would not be affected by BSA membership guidelines. Even if he signed on as IH, the last three units I started never had an IH fill out an application. My current crew's COR elects new leadership every year, last two years, two different IH signatures. I don't know if that is correct, but my DE has never had any complaints.

 

The main issue, would be if the church were to demand that the scouts changed their policy or that they requested that the scouts earning their awards would subscribe to the churches belief, then would it interfere with the BSA values.

 

[scoutldr]

I'm not Bob, either, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express a couple of weeks ago...is that good enough?

 

The Archbishop of Canterbury is quoted on MSN.com that he fully expects the Anglican Church in the US to divide into two separate divisions (schisms) as a result of this...sounds like a fait accomplis. If the church allows gay religious leaders, I find it hard to believe that they would object to gay Scout leaders. I predict that they will divorce the BSA...not vice versa.

 

For those waiting with baited breath, the vote happens at 1630 CDT. (For you ex-Marines, the little hand will be on the....)

[littlebillie]

So is the thought that the BSA is going to be ok with the message that a boy's priest is ok to guide his religious live, but is not a fit leader for the BSA?

 

That doesn't seem a very clear message, especially for those issues where the SM is advised to encourage the boy to talk to parents and religious leaders..?

[bt01]

How many Episcopal churches sponser packs, Troops or crews??? In my council there are None Or zero (0). I am not an expert on positions gays when it comes to each Posistant demanation or even relgion.

[saltheart]

"So is the thought that the BSA is going to be ok with the message that a boy's priest is ok to guide his religious live, but is not a fit leader for the BSA?"

 

I think we're getting a little ahead of ourselves and the situation here. At some time in the near future, the BSA may, indeed, chime in on the subject if the fellow is accepted as a bishop within his church. But long before the BSA may ever be asked to state its opinion on the subject, the church itself will reach its own fork in the road, and the congregations will be tested, and will perhaps divide...long before the BSA has to react or present an opinion publicly. And that is only if an approval is forthcoming.

 

If the 'church' accepts this fellow, it will only be part of the church. There will be dissenters, of course. Their number may be sufficient to present the church with yet another internal struggle to overcome, and that will be in the form of its mere existence as a unified organization. That seems unlikely. More likely in this scenario will be the 'new' and 'enlightened' church presenting the BSA with an ultimatum. "Accept gays, or we will not stand behind or with the award". The divided church may resolve the issue for the BSA, with those of the old church, to which the award was tied, maintaining their beliefs and trust in Scouting, and those of the new church dropping any affiliation and walking away. That's just my guess, but I think that's more likely than the BSA having to justify anything with regard to the maintenance of the award.

(This message has been edited by saltheart)

[bt01]

After my last posting, how well does the BSA know the Chartering Organization-?? Does any one ask them any questions on our core beliefs??

[NJCubScouter]

I'm not sure what the big deal is, at least as far as it relates to an Episcopal church continuing to be a CO even if the nationwide church body accepts gay clergy. They would not be the first religion or denomination to have gay clergy. Reform Judaism has had openly gay rabbis for probably more than 10 years now, and I am fairly sure that the BSA does not prohibit Reform Jewish synagogues from being CO's. (This is still an open issue within the Conservative Jewish movement, and probably never will be an issue for Orthodox Jews, who probably will never have either female rabbis or openly gay rabbis.) Incidentally, some Reform rabbis will perform gay "union ceremonies" (or whatever terminology they choose to use), and some will not... just as some congregations will not hire an openly gay rabbi. (Hmm, sounds like "local option" to me.)

 

Anyway, I am sure Reform Judaism is not the only religous denomination or movement to ordain openly gay clergy, and at the same time to have some of its places of worship serve as CO's for BSA units. Whatever got the Unitarian Universalists banned from being CO's (as opposed to just having their religious award banned from uniform wear), it must have been something more than that.

 

I did raise on another thread the issue of what would happen if a place of worship with an openly gay leader were a CO, but I don't think I got an answer. As has been pointed out, IH is not a registered position. The IH would be in a rather awkward position, which is why I suspect there are not too many situations like this that actually exist. (But there are probably a few, at least.) Among other things, unlike any other IH, the IH could not appoint himself/herself to be CR. Other odd situations come to mind, like an openly gay rabbi giving the invocation at an Eagle court of honor, though (obviously) not saying anything about sexual orientation. It wouldn't exactly support the BSA's claim that an openly gay person cannot be a good role model for youth.

[purcelce]

"For those waiting with baited breath, the vote happens at 1630 CDT. (For you ex-Marines, the little hand will be on the....)"

 

LOL! Good one Sctldr. I just hope the Jarheads don't get mad and stomp on Mickey....

 

Semper Fi

 

Cary P, MSgt, USAF

 

 

[mk9750]

For those of you who remember, I was investigating the UU / BSA disagreement. I suspect what I found during that investigation is applicable here.

 

To apply the UU situation to the Episcopal Church, if the Church changed the Religious Emblem to include something with which the BSA has a problem, THEN the issue between the two organizations may come to a head. Or, if the Church started preasuring BSA to accept members who do not meet membership standards. Until then, I suspect that the BSA will feel as though they have no reason to take a position about an issue over which they have no control.

 

The interesting thing to watch would be if the religious heads started trying to push the BSA toward accepting members currently excluded. From what I've learned, these are the people who control the policy. Since it is decidely skewed toward a more conservative position now (which is good), it would be interesting to see the results.

 

Mark

[Fat Old Guy]

" (For you ex-Marines, the little hand will be on the....)"

 

I've always been told that there is no such thing as an "ex-Marine." :-)

[Fat Old Guy]

I go an Epicopalian church and our parish has been split over the homosexual issue for many years. There is even a struggle in the church over the ordination of women. One parish in Maryland went rebel and refused to acknowledge a woman bishop. I don't know how that turned out but there was talk of revoking their charter or whatever churches do.

 

For my part, I don't like homosexual clergy or women clergy.

[scoutldr]

I love Marines. Every Navy should have some.

 

Semper Fi, Sarge!