SM won't lead and garners no respect from boys or leaders

[bsabrit]

We have a SM that won't lead. What I mean is, that he wants us to have a boy led troop, which the ASM's and parents are in favor of, but he expects that everything will be done by the boys. All of the planning, except the annual plan, he expects the boys to do...with no help from anyone. And then when it fails, he blames the SPL! If an ASM tries to help, they are told that it is the SM that deals with that in the troop and asked not to continue.

The problem is, now none of the boys like him because he is so unapproachable.

Talking with the COR prompted a visit to a campout but during the time the COR was there, the SM has never been so helpful.Has anyone else had problems like this? How can we get passed this?

[Bob White]

What exactly does the SM see as his duties,other than swatting others away from the boys?

 

The only thing that can help is training and hope that he listens, or for the Committee Chair and Charter organization rep to make an administrative change.

 

Good Luck,

Bob White

[acco40]

It is all perspective. As SM, do I expect everything to be done by the boys? No. Is it my goal that everything (almost everything) is done by the boys? Yes, even the annual planning!

 

I have "swatted" away ASMs (usually the untrained ones) and parents who want to help the boys set up their tents, put up the dining fly, unload or load the trailer, etc.

 

At our PLC, when the boys come unprepared, I offer a few suggestions and then walk away to let them bang out the program details for the month (outing and theme are already in place). I then review it with them, complement them, or give a critique (in the most positive manner I can) where needed. Am I unapproachable? No. But I do know that many feel I ask too much of the boys.

 

From the youth's perspective, it is very difficult for many of the younger youth to see the boy leadership struggle when they feel that the adults could do a better job. Maybe we could but the primary goal is not to see how clean the dishes can be, how quickly camp is set up or taken down. The goal is to teach the boys character, citizenship, and personal fitness. In many cases, that is best done by "getting out of the way."(This message has been edited by acco40)

[bt01]

The Scouymaster will not lead??? From what I understand the troop is "boy run"???

 

Aftewr that statment, How well developed is the boy leaders???? Can the Green Bar or Leadership Corp run the troop??? If not it may be time that Scout goes through leadership trainning?? Have the Learship Corp sit down at a PLC and have an aldult explain them what is ment by boy run and tell then what there duties are.

[bsabrit]

I guess the expectation of how the SM should act is what has people in the troop confused. Should not the role of the SM and ASM's be to help the boys "learn" how to lead? Is not providing that help, guidance and 'leadership' helpful? The SM has been SM for two years with no improvement in how things are done. The boys must attend JLT before taking a leadership role, but they do not get the support that many think that they need after that training.

 

The ASM's have tried to work with the SM, but the SM is not for altering course. The SM says he will try anything to improve the way the Troop functions, but refuses to make alterations when they are suggested. Are there any ways in which the members of this forum can suggest that the SM be persuaded to change his view? We are now looking at the prospect of losing up to 10 of our regular 22 or so Scouts to other Troops, or from Scouting all together.

[dan]

The SM should train the scouts how to lead not show. This sounds the same but it is not. The SM should make sure that the scouts are trained to be able to lead.

Yes, the scouts should do ALL of the planning. What bothers me about your post is that the SM does not seem to guide the leaders when they do fail. Are they really failures or did the campout not come off like the adults wanted it to?

You state that he has been the SM for 2 years, how long has he been a BS leader? How long have you been a leader?

I ask this because it took me over 2 years to start getting a handle on boy lead.

Do the boys really dislike him or is it the adults that do not like him and the scouts side with the adults?

It is a fine line that Scoutmasters walk.

[dsteele]

I too would have questioned whether this issue is simply people struggling to grasp what boy led means.

 

However, one point sticks out in my mind. When the COR came to visit, the Scoutmaster changed his behavior. Why would he do that if he were well-trained and believed everything was running as it should?

 

My guess, BSAbrit is your probably wondering if you're missing something. My suggestion is that you pick up the application for the Scoutmaster Award of Merit (which is designed to be awarded by the boys and the troop committee fairly early in a Scoutmaster's tenure) and see how far you get with it with the boys and the committee.

 

When, (I wish it were "if) the word leaks to the Scoutmaster, he may decide he needs to change course. Of course, if you're wrong about folks not liking his leadership style, the worst case is that the man will get the award. I don't see a downside.

 

DS

[Eamonn]

Baden Powell once said "Never do anything for a boy that he can do for himself."

He also said "Slowly, Slowly catchee monkey"

All Scoutmasters go to bed and dream that they will wake up to this wonder of wonder, the Boy Led Troop.

Unless you are starting a new troop, or have done this from day one it does take a little getting used to.

While I firmly believe that running a Boy Led Troop is a lot more fun. More fun then me doing all the work.

I also believe it takes a lot more leadership.

It does make me sad to see that the Scoutmaster is appionting blame, and worse still that he is unapproachable.

It does seem that this poor chap is in need of an attitude adjustment. He has read the cover he now needs to read the book.

He needs to toddle off to Training ASAP.

It would seem like a good idea if the Troop did the JLTC, training not just for the sake of getting the Scouts up to speed - But also to get the leaders on the same right page.

Then of course there is your ever friendly Unit Commissioner. He/she could be a big help here. At times all of us need a friendly kick in the pants.

Sad to say this poor chap may be one of those, who just don't get it. In that case the best thing for everyone is to do as Bob White says, far more politely then I would:

"An administrative Change."

[bsabrit]

I'll try to answer some of the questions that have been raised...

 

I believe the dislike of the SM by most of the boys is genuine and I know that the ASM's are very careful to support him in front of the boys, trying not to color the boys opinion with their own.

 

Up until about 2.5 yrs ago when the current SM took over, the troop was SM led. The previous SM was well liked because he did everything for the boys and they were allowed to do what they wanted. The current SM has determined that the troop will be boy led (as it should be), but I think the problem is that he has used the "big bang" approach - one meeting the troop was SM led, the next meeting and from then on everything is boy led. The boys were and are ill-prepared for this. The ASM's see this but the SM does not. The boys have had JLT, but get no support from the SM to follow-up - they have been on a mini-weekend camp so they must know what to do, when and how to do it.

 

The SM has been a BS Leader for 20 years and been involved with BS for much of his life. I am not aware of any training that he has taken while I have been a leader with the troop, these last 5 years. (I have re-done my SM Training within the last 2 years).

 

I agree that the SM should "train" not "lead" per se, but it seems that everything is very black and white to him, no shades of grey while the boys get confidence and become more comfortable. I think it a measure of the man that he blames the boys for the failures of the SM (and also the ASM's).

 

It's true that the line the SM walks is very fine, but should it not become fine only when you know that the boys are able, when you know that you have taught them what they need so that they can go and learn the rest themselves?

 

You are all giving great ideas and thoughts. I like the idea of the SM Award of Merit( why didn't I think of that?), I think that may help alot, and as DS said, it may show us that actually what is being done is right and we should stick to it. I also like the idea of a troop JLT and perhaps encouraging the SM to redo some training himself as things have most certainly changed since the last training that he took.

 

With the prospect of losing almost half of the boys, mostly the older ones that are feeling the brunt of the lack of adult leadership, I worry that the younger boys will be even less equipped to deal with the way in which the SM continues to run the troop.

[mk9750]

I've come to learn in my timne in this forum that almost all of the participants have a niche in which all of the answers on that subject seem to be right on (Don't worry, I figure mine out sometime!).

 

This one is perfect for EagleDad, I think. I've seen him tackle very similiar issues with a great deal of valuable thoughts and ideas.

 

EagleDad?

 

Mark

[KoreaScouter]

Every SM I've met claimed to have a boy-led troop. And, all of them were right, to one degree or another. In my mind, the extent to which a troop is or can be boy-led is situational. With mature, experienced, dedicated youth leaders, you can get a lot closer to a fully boy-led troop than you can with young, inexperienced, distracted or aloof youth leaders.

 

It's important, in my opinion, for the SM to read his situation accurately, then act appropriately. There have been times, for example, when I had to take a more active role in a PLC than should have been necessary -- new SPL, etc. However, my goal in those situations is to work my way out a job. And, I do that by consistently sticking to the program, and using the tools available to develop those youth leaders. Some catch on fast, others never do, and most are in between somewhere. But, I don't measure the success of the program in the short term.

 

I've seen adult leaders make what I think is the mistake of watching youth leaders err repeatedly at the same things, and not model, demonstrate, or train them in better and more effective methods. I don't know if it's laziness or what.

 

KS