Where to steer agnostic boy?

[evmori]

I'm out of here till August. Chuurch camp. Have a great week!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[SagerScout]

Well, it's a real problem for me and you'se guys spitting at each other isn't really much help.

 

I know his parents well and they do not mind questions aimed at helping him distill his beliefs, nor do they object to my personal Christian witness. My biggest concern is that he will invest a great deal of time and energy into the program and then, at age 15 or 16 or 17, decide that he really, really is a genuine atheist. Hate for that to happen right before his Eagle board!

 

He frequently attends my church's youth group functions as a visitor. One day he really wanted to go, because they were doing something fun, but he came to me and said "You know, I really want to go but I don't think it's right because I'm not sure I believe in God and I don't want to pretend - I mean, everyone is always so nice to me there." He was quite shocked when I told him that he didn't have to pretend at all since I had told the youth pastor on his first visit that he was not yet decided on the God issue. He couldn't imagine that he was accepted with open arms even though he is not from our denomination.

 

The UU thread seems to indicate that all that is required is a belief in a Higher Power, to which I CAN envision this young man arriving. He has a great reverence for the outdoors and for life in general, which I find a dandy starting point for my observations on the Master of the Universe.

 

Can someone tell me more about Explorers? do they have the same type of rank and recognition systems as the Scouts?

 

[NWScouter]

Explorers were moved to the Learning for Life subsidiary of the BSA. They are mostly fire, police and other career type interest groups. In order for the government entities to be involved they have no discriminatory membership requirements. Therefore they arent officially a traditional BSA program. I dont believe that there is advancement program.

The high adventure and other interest groups that use to be part of Explorers were renamed Venturing. At the time they did the change they started a new advancement program. It consists of a Bronze, Silver, and Gold awards. They also can earn the Ranger award. Venturing has the same membership requirements as Boy Scout except that it is co-ed, and the ages are 14-20.

Back to topic. I had two Scouts that were in a similar situation to your Scout. One that through his dad reaction to church and their schools in his life had a bad attitude toward religion in general. When he was coming up to his Eagle Board of Review. He and I had our Scoutmaster Conference where we discussed his belief in god. I didnt tell him what to say but to seriously consider his position and his answers. I told him that Duty to God did not mean any one religion, but to that you believe in god.

The other was a son of Chinese family. His parents came from China where each village has different beliefs and many other competing beliefs systems. They did not give any guidance and wanted to him to make up his own mind. It was an interesting conference because when we speak of God we assume the other has the same general definition. The both passed and are Eagles.

My recommendation is have your Scout stay in . Encourage him to explore his belief in God and listen to him in nonjudgmental way.

 

 

[eisely]

I think everybody agrees that this boy should be encouraged to stay in scouting. I also think that he should be advised that, when he submits his eagle application, he will need a letter of recommendation from his "religious leader," a concept that is undefined. We are not very active in any religion in our household, and when my middle son went for his eagle we were briefly concerned about this. However, he had been participating in a youth group run by another denomination and the leader of that group wrote a letter that was acceptable to his Eagle BOR. Of course this is Northern California, and people are pretty relaxed about things. In some parts of the country Eagle BORs may be more demanding.

[NWScouter]

Those letters are asked for but are not a requirement. Up here our Council Advancement Committee has determined that a Scout will not be held back from a Eagle BOR if the letters are not returned in a timely manner.

[Bob White]

Hi Sager,

Here is where I see the problem being.

On the Application that the parent must sign is the Declaration of religious principle, it says..."The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefor, recognizes the religious religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward religious training.

 

Nondenominational means "any denmination" not no denomination.

 

The Boy Scout Handbook says that a scout is faithful in his religious duties.

 

The questions arise. What denomination does the scout get hisa religious training through, and how does he explain how he fullfills his duty to God if he does not accept the existence of something he cannot prove(which is the definition of Agnostic)?

 

I'm glad he thinks scouting is fun. But fun is a tool of scouting not the purpose of scouting. If he is not reverent to God and able to provide service to support that oath of duty, then scouting is not the appropriate activity and not being upfront with him about that only sets him up for disappointment in the near future.

 

 

As far as wher to direct him. If his concern is fun, there are a number of fun activities and organizations for children, many of which have as their sloe purpose to entertain. Remeber it is not just youth who join. It is their parents who must enroll him. Do they understand the religious principles of scouting? Do they understand that his is a value based program which has as one of it's root bases Duty to god and service to God? How do they feel about that?

 

Perhaps scouting is in this boys future once he determines in his heart and mind if he has a relationship to God and what that might mean to him.

 

Bob White

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

eisely writes:

I think everybody agrees that this boy should be encouraged to stay in scouting.

 

I certainly don't; the Boy Scouts are a dishonest organization that encourages bigotry against atheists.

[NWScouter]

I didnt see it say non-denominational but it is absolutely nonsectarian. Here is the definition: nonsectarian [ nnsek tiree n ] adjective 1. not relating to religious subgroup: not relating to a group or denomination within a wider religion or disputes between such groups

2. not restricted to one denomination: not restricted to members of one religious denomination, but open to all

 

 

The latest training that I have said that we arent to use non-denominational but inter-faith. Non-denominational has come to mean a particular type of Christian church and also denomination is only used to describe different groups of Christians. Inter-faith encompasses all type of faiths.

No where does it say he has to belong to any religious group or where he gets his religious training. It is up to his family, himself and his religious group if he has one to define his Duty to God.

 

 

 

 

[Bob White]

Sorry, typo on my part. Non-sectarian is correct. Not belonging to a specific sect but open to al. that does not mean the same as open to those with none. The scout is still expected to have a specific belief in God which he practices and gives service to.

 

Thanks for the catch NWScouter.

 

Bob White

 

 

[Fat Old Guy]

nondenominational (nnd-nme-nshe-nel) adjective

Not restricted to or associated with a religious denomination.

 

nonsectarian (nnsk-tr-en) adjective

Not limited to or associated with a particular religious denomination.

 

Pretty close in meaning but not quite identical. However, I don't see how failure to belong to an organized religion is precluded.

 

If a boy decides that his god lives on the moon and sends goodwill to Earth on moonbeams, does that not count as his religion?

 

I believe that someone from BSA once stated that you could worship a rock in your back yard and that would fit BSA's requirements.

 

 

[Swordse]

Boys (and girls) of this age are often still forming and developing their beliefs. My son has joined several youth groups from several very different churches and has explored several religions. I hope he will explore some more. We have told him he is free to develop his own beliefs. He understands my beliefs and we have many discussions, but in no way do I intend to impose my beliefs on him. Does he believe in a 'higher power'? I am certain that he does. But I think in his view, 'duty to God' means living by the Golden Rule, not being a member of a particular church or adhering to a particular doctrine. The time may come when it will be difficult for him to get a letter from his religious leader (as if there were only one).

[Advisor FB]

Acco40,

In my opinion, the comment, "I don't think "society" has changed to accept immoral behavior, I believe that "society" has changed the definition of what is considered immoral." has it backwards. I feel that society has changed to "accept" behavior, be it immoral or moral as a way of being "tolerant". Most people still view the behavior as moral or immoral, but in the name of tolerance, they do not pass judgement on the person. Society tends to change from time to time on what would be called normal behavior, but I don't think that means that behavior that was once was immoral, is now considered moral. Studies have shown that most college students still feel cheating is immoral, yet those same students reported cheating at all time highs. Does that mean that morality is at an all time low? No, just that, the individual's tolerance of behavior is more important now than an individual's morality.

 

[acco40]

Interesting take Adviser. But if you ask some collegiate "cheaters" why they did it, they tend to rationalize their behavior (i.e. everyone else does it, I'm not hurting anyone, yadda yadda yadda).

 

Do they really think that what they are doing is immoral? Maybe yes, maybe no.

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

Swordse,

 

First of all, welcome to the Scouter.com forums! Now, please don't tkae this as a criticism or judgement, because that is certainly not how it is intended. Help me to understand how you can take such a relaxed view on your child's spiritual life? I believe that we as parents have a responsibility to impart our values in our children. We teach them not to steal, not to lie, not to be selfish. We teach them to work and study hard. We teach them to treat others with respect. We teach them to be neat and clean. We do these things because it is what we were taught, because it is "right" and because it makes them good citizens, friends, employees, etc. It is rare to find a parent who would say, "well, I don't steal, but I'll let my child decide on his own which way he wants to go with this". Again, I'm not trying to criticize. To me the spiritual side of life is too important to just leave to chance and I couldn't imagine not trying to lead by example and instill my religious values into my son. He can chose to reject them or search for something different when he has the critical thinking skills to do so. BTW, my son is only 10, not 17. Just interested in your thought process? Thanks! And again, welcome to the forums.

 

 

[NJCubScouter]

(First of all, did AdviserFB's post jump into the wrong thread? I was going to answer it, but then saw that it seems to be in the wrong thread and I did not want to send Sager's thread off into you-know-what-land.)

 

I have written here before about my own experiences with the "religion" part of Scouting. When I was 16 or so, and up, I was basically this kid, sometimes thinking I was an atheist, sometimes an agnostic, usually not being sure, sometimes not caring, but interspersed with all of that, also feeling (especially when in the outdoors with Scouting) feeling like there was some greater something, but not being exactly sure what it was and what it did and how I related to it. I could go on, including where I have "gone" since then, but I already wrote that somewhere, and it isn't critical.

 

I think the critical point is this sentence in Sager's first post:

 

He does not want to be hypocritical in promising "duty to God" when he's not sure God exists.

 

Very simply, though it's not simple, he has to decide whether he can say the Oath and Law, including all the words. That's all he has to do. He is not required to be a member of an organized religion, though this will require some extra effort (though not an insurmountable obstacle) when he goes to fill out his Eagle application. Also, I really don't think he should be asked questions (Rooster) about how there can be love without God and why are we here, or anything like that, because I can tell you from personal experience in being a semi-agnostic-confused-teenager, that the best answer you are going to get is "I don't know." I don't think anyone should try to convince this boy of anything at this point. (Rooster, I'd really be curious to know if anybody has ever really been persuaded that there is a God, by being asked those questions. I personally do believe in God, though not as you envision God, and I (the current me, not just the teenaged me) would not answer the questions the way you think they should be answered. My belief in God is sufficient for Scouting, though I suspect you would not define it as a belief in God at all.)

 

What I do think someone should do, as I said, is have a conversation with this boy about whether he can say those words. If he can, there is no reason he cannot be a Scout. But, to partially agree with Bob, the boy should be told ahead of time that it may not work out for him in Scouting. If he decides he can no longer say the words, he can't be a Scout anymore.

 

Now, I can hear someone saying, he can't just say the words, he has to mean them. I say, give the kid a chance if he wants it. I personally think that if B-P was faced with this kind of kid, he would be rolling out the red carpet and tossing the boy a free handbook. Get him into the outdoors, B-P said, and see what happens. (Well, he didn't say exactly that, but that's what he meant.)

 

What I really mean is, the boy should be asked, can you acknowledge that there may be a God, or higher power, or force that set the Universe in motion, or whatever you want to call it? And when you say the Scout Oath, can you call "it" God, because that's what the BSA calls it, keeping in mind that the BSA does not necessarily mean the God of the Bible? And if he has trouble with that, when he says "God" can he avoid hypocrisy by adding (to himself) the words "if any"? (I suspect I will get some flak for that last one.)

 

Nobody ever asked me those questions. But I think that subconsciously, that is probably the thought process I went through that allowed me to stay in Scouting without considering myself a hypocrite.