Where to steer agnostic boy?

[SagerScout]

I know a boy, age 14, who is not at all sure he believes in God. In fact he's leaning against the concept. His parents are not believers, but tell their children to make up their own minds.

 

He's a great kid, intelligent, and generally honest (although I did catch him cheating at Scrabble once). He does not want to be hypocritical in promising "duty to God" when he's not sure God exists. But he sure would like to be a Scout, since Scouts have so much fun.

 

What organization do you suggest for him?

 

 

[acco40]

The BSA. Tell me any individual who has not ever doubted the existence of God, and I will show you a liar.

 

Oh father, why have you forsaken me comes to mind.

 

(This message has been edited by acco40)

[evmori]

Ditto to acco40!

 

 

[Rooster7]

Acco40,

 

I understand your sentiment, but you're using the Bible verse out of context. Jesus never doubted the existence of God. That's not very likely since He himself is God.

 

Nevertheless I agree, until the boy starts making public declarations that he doesn't believe in God, encourage the boy to stay in the BSA. In the meantime, take advantage of his time there and steer him toward God. Try some questions. If God doesn't exist, then what is love? If God doesn't exist, then is good and evil subjective? If not, why not? If God doesn't exist, then why do spiritual bonds exist between people? If God doesn't exist, then who is it that you struggle with when you're tempted to do wrong? If God doesn't exist, then why are we here? I think these probing questions are fair to ask a boy who has doubts, especially if he's in an organization that requires a belief in God as a membership criterion. I realize that the boy could offhandedly improvise answers to these philosophical and weighty questions. However, I would encourage him to ponder each question carefully before he answers. He may discover that he believes in God more than he ever realized.

[acco40]

"Steer him toward God." I don't take that as my "job" which is leadership training. However, I do act as a role model and in my actions may influence the young man.

 

If the boys parents "are not believers" as stated by Sager and want their son to make up his own mind, I would tread lightly on the line of questioning that you have proposed.

 

I don't want to debate religion on this forum but I'm sure you realize that the "Jesus is God" is not a universally accepted idea.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[evmori]

"Jesus is God" might not be universally accepted but it is accurate! The Holy Spirit is also God. Ergo the Holy Trinity.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[acco40]

Like most ten year old boys, my middle child doesn't talk much about school. When picking him up from his catechism class this Spring I asked my usual question of what he did during class. His usual response is "nothing much" or 'we talked about Jesus."

 

One evening, he asked me about about Jesus. Now, if you are a student of child psychology or know anything about child development you know about what concepts most 10 year olds can grasp and what they can't. My son at this age, having no real interest in girls yet, is none to aware of the "birds and the bees." He was confused about what he was learning in catechism. One week they tell the story of Joeseph, Mary and "baby" Jesus and the next week they explain how Jesus is the son of God. Did he have two fathers? He was definitely confused. Being the good father I told him, "go ask your mother."

 

 

[evmori]

acco40,

you were doing so good then WHAM! right into the wall!

[eisely]

As was pointed out, everybody questions the existence of god at some point in their life. This young man's questioning is normal for a person his age and is no reason for him to exclude himself from scouting. Scouting does not demand much in "duty to god." I would tell him the mere fact that he is thinking about the subject is enough for the moment.

[SagerScout]

Well, certainly erring on the side of "including him in" would be my personal preference as well, as I've stated here before.

 

But I recently read about scouts being asked to leave the organization that they have grown to love because of their expressing honest doubts about the existence of God (what was that kid's name - they asked him about "duty to God" in his Life BOR and he said he wasn't sure about the whole God thing - and he not only did not make his rank but was summarily booted out of the organization?) My heart breaks for them. I hate to encourage this boy only to have something like that happen on his trail to Eagle, I would feel I had done him a disservice.

 

[Rooster7]

Acco40,

 

If the boys parents "are not believers" as stated by Sager and want their son to make up his own mind, I would tread lightly on the line of questioning that you have proposed.

 

I don't think you have to tread lightly when one of the criteria for membership is that you profess a belief in God. I am not necessarily advocating that you direct him to a specific faith. However, as Scout leaders, it's completely within our realm of responsibility to tell these boys that God exist and He is good. If a parent has heartburn over that, I would recommend that they read some BSA literature. Likewise, asking questions that make a boy or boys think about God and their relationship with Him is perfectly reasonable. God, Country, Family...These are central themes to Scouting. Parents shouldn't expect anything less.

 

eisely,

 

Scouting does not demand much in "duty to god."

 

That may be the way your troop wishes to perceive "duty to god", but other troops place a higher priority on this aspect of Scouting. While I'll admit that I prefer the character building aspects of the program, I try not to neglect the leadership part of the program. Conversely, just because some people think religion or "faith" should be private, I would hope that they don't neglect "duty to God" in their program. I've never seen any BSA literature that stated duty to country or family took priority of duty to god.

 

SagerScout,

 

and he not only did not make his rank but was summarily booted out of the organization?) My heart breaks for them

 

I understand. But, at some point in time, a Scout has to recognize God in a real way. If he doesnt, then hes not really embracing the BSA program. Camping, leadership skills, etc. are all great and part of the program. However, just as important, is recognizing and fulfilling ones responsibilities to God. If this is ignored, then as Bob likes to say youre doing something other than Scouting.

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

SagerScout, I agree with your opinion that if this boy joins the BSA, it's quite likely that the BSA will end up kicking him out for having "unacceptable" religious views.

 

There are plenty of possibilities outside the BSA; almost no other youth group kicks out atheists. I don't know what other groups are in your area, but Campfire or Boys & Girls Clubs are similar to Scouts.

 

Even within the Scouts there are a couple of possibilities; Explorers no longer exclude atheists, and most are coed 14-and-up. Another possibility would be for him to join a BSA unit chartered by a government agency, which cannot discriminate against atheists; it's likely that the BSA would still throw him out, but at least he'd be able to sue both the government agency and the BSA for using the government to discriminate against him on the basis of religion.(This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy)

[evmori]

Oh boy! Merlyn is here with his atheist rhetoric! Did anyone mention atheists? I think the crux of the thread is someone questioning the existence of God. Never say the word atheist till Merlyn decided that's what we were talking about.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

Oh Boy! Ed Mori with more vacuous comments.

[evmori]

Hi Merlyn!