Anti Gay / Pro Religon

[bt01]

This is going to open a can worms, but my title was taken from another thread. The Boy Scouts are trying to teach family values and other material to today's youth. Is National getting in the way by making un friendly dissutions??

 

At the local level does the parents or other adults understand that there is a "national"? Do they understand what we are trying to teach?

 

[berkshirescouter]

To influence any group you must get in a leadership/policy making position, to do this in Boy Scouts you sponsor units. If any group that disagrees with the current policies had been forming units instead of leaving, policy would be different.

[scoutldr]

I can decipher most typos, but what's an "un friendly dissution"?????

[evmori]

Do the parents know National exists? I think a better question is do they know the orginizational structure of the BSA? If they did, it might help them. Individual units are the lowest level of the organization & this is where most parents are familiar with.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

I would agree that most adults do not understant the structure of scouting. Youth are the highest level of scouting. They are supported by the adults of the chartered organization,who are supported by District Volunteers that include representative of those organizations, who are geographic managers for Council which is made up of more volunteers including representatives from the Charter organizations, Who are supported by regional made up supported by the Region who is made up of other vounteers and representatives from Charter Organizations, Who are supported by the National Council at the bottom level of the scouting structure, which by the way is also made up largely of volunteers from the district and council levels as well as representatives of the Charter Organizations.

Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Eamonn]

Bob White,

While I agree with what you have posted.I have yet to see any Organizational Chart,issued by the BSA, that shows it that way.

As to if I think that the BSA,is anti gay?

I have no idea what "Anti" means.

While we do not allow avowed homosexuals as members. To the best of my knowledge, we respect that this is a life style that they have opted to follow. We do not make any judgement on it, other then we do not think that this is a good role model for our members.

I like to think that we are more Pro God, then pro religion.

Over the years I have had many boys, who did not belong to any religion or sect. However they did believe that there was a God or a Supreme Being.

It used to be back in England that Scout Leaders were encouraged to bring them to church with them.

There are many Chartered Organizations, that are taking a much firmer stance on both of these issues. They are entitled to do so. But they are not the BSA.

[Bob White]

Hi Eamonn,

For the last 25 years the structure of scouting was shown in the various Unit leader training courses (Cub Leader Basic, Cornerstone, Scout Leader Training, Scoutmaster Basic, Scoutmaster Fundementals) as a pyramid with the youth at the peak and the national office at the very bottom as the foundation. Today it is part of New Leader Essentials and is shown as a target with the youth as the Bulls-eye (the most valuable position) and the other support groups of CO, District, Council and National as the outer rings.

 

As far as anti-gay/pro-religion I think you stated it perfectly.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[MarkNoel]

Eamonn writes:

> As to if I think that the BSA,is anti gay?

> I have no idea what "Anti" means.

> While we do not allow avowed homosexuals as members. To the best of my

> knowledge, we respect that this is a life style that they have opted to follow. We

> do not make any judgement on it, other then we do not think that this is a good

> role model for our members.

 

You just answered your own question. First you have judged gays as having "chosen" a "life style" to follow -- an assertion that most gays and professional medical associations would take issue with. Then you have categorically stated that these people are not good role models.

 

Just because you repeatedly say that you "respect" them doesn't mean that your words or actions actually SHOW any respect. Take a look at some of these quotes from other BSA officials:

 

"Boy Scouts of America regards homosexual conduct as inconsistent with the requirement in the Scout Oath to be morally straight and in the Scout Law to be clean in one's speech and action"

 

"We don't feel an avowed homosexual is a role model for those values, and we don't extend roles for leadership to those people."

 

" In the Oath and Law, the Boy Scout promises to do his duty to God and to be morally straight, as well as to be clean in his thoughts, words and deeds.... an individual who declares himself to be a homosexual would not be permitted to join Scouting. All members in Scouting must affirm the values of the Scout Oath and Law, and all leaders must be able to model those values for youth."

 

If you really can't see where others would be able to reasonably perceive some anti-gay sentiments in the previous statements, then perhaps you could go through and replace "homosexual" with "Catholic" or "Negro" to see how well it would fly.

 

True respect is more than lip service -- it involves an honest attempt at understanding someone different from you. You might start by asking a few gay folks about what motivated them to "choose" such a "life style." You might be surprised by the answers you get...

 

YiS,

-Mark

 

 

 

 

[Bob58]

 

Eammonn

Well said when you shifted from religion to God.

 

And I'll take a turn at the other side from a different angle. For all that we hear about being Anti-gay I believe that Sciouts (and even National) should emphasize that our stand alllows for the greatest possible diversity among those who share the "three aims of scouting."

(Character, Citizenship, & Fitness.)

 

I have friends who changed their plans & left "the Six Foot Mouse's Magic Kingdom" when they realized that they had booked a vacation with their two young children for the "unofficial" gay week Disney. Yes, they were already in Florida, yes they CHOSE not to repeatedly discuss "life choices" with their children and yes, they left. Lets ask for the same consideration and accomadation that the vocal gay community clamors for, something like "Don't question our motives or values, gives us basic humasn respect.

 

Ten years ago a good friend came out of the closet. I've known him since high school, he was my and might still be my "best man" from my wedding day. We've stood by each other for 28 years. He has shared my children's birthday celebrations & attended my parents funerals. He is my 4th brother.

I'm almost ashamed to say that I've never met either of the two men with whom he has lived. He has never brought them to one of our family events out of respect for my family's views. His first serious relationship lasted for 12 years, the second has lasted 4 so far.) One of my birth brother's first marriage didn't last 10 years.) When my friend first came out of the closet we spoke about this issue. Our tolerance & accomodation has made it possible for us to remain friends. I honestly think he has given up a lot for me over the years.

 

I think I'll copy him on this post.

[Bob58]

Sorry Mark. I probably started my reply about the same time that you did & didn't get a chance to read it before mine appeared, but I've no regrets.

I'll stand behind my view of tolerance.

Bob

[Rooster7]

I have friends who changed their plans & left "the Six Foot Mouse's Magic Kingdom" when they realized that they had booked a vacation with their two young children for the "unofficial" gay week Disney. Yes, they were already in Florida, yes they CHOSE not to repeatedly discuss "life choices" with their children and yes, they left. Lets ask for the same consideration and accommodation that the vocal gay community clamors for, something like "Don't question our motives or values, gives us basic human respect.

 

What does this mean? What are you trying to say about your friends and/or gays?

 

I have a comment concerning your friends who visited Disney. GOOD for them! I dont discuss sexual depravity with my young children either. As long as I feel it is wise to do so, Im not going to flush my childrens innocence down the toilet. I dont know the magical age, but each child is different. Furthermore, while the village (as in it takes a village) may prefer that my child knows all about sex, this is one parent who thinks the village is filled with idiots (not inferring anyone on this board). My children will do just fine. They will know what they need to know when the time comes, and it wont be a twisted version of the truth. So, I applaud your friends for not rushing into something. I further applaud them for sacrificing a great deal of money - instead of sacrificing their integrity or their childrens innocence. Thats putting your money where your mouth is. They obviously dont just speak about morality and principles - they live it. Thats very Scout-like in my mind. I like your friends.

 

As for the vocal gay community that wants basic human respect, I think that needs a little more clarification. Heres my idea of basic human respect you have the right to be ignored and left alone. If youre not interacting with my family or me through normal events, then I dont need to know you or your cause. If gays want me to accept their behavior as normal its not going to happen. If gays want me to celebrate their diversity, its not going to happen. I reserve the right to not like what they do. I reserve the right to view their practices as morally unacceptable.

 

"Don't question our motives or values, gives us basic human respect."

 

If you think basic human respect means not questioning someones motives or values, then you have a different definition of respect than I do. To me, the essences of respect is knowing and appreciating someones motives and values. If those motives and values conflict with mine, then I Just assume we dont become close friends. If youre talking about courtesy Yes, I can be polite to just about anyone, but respect I dont think so.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[acco40]

Rooster and MarkNoel gave a good synopsis of the problem. Some think of homosexuality as immoral. Others as just another defining characteristic such as skin or eye color. I can see both sides. Heck, I'm a sinister person (left handed) and would not take to kindly to an organization that said "we respect your right to exist, but are not welcome in our organization because we feel you are not a proper role model for youth."

[captainron14]

Rooster, I could not have said it better myself.

 

[littlebillie]

ummmm - since nothing new's getting said on the subject, let's all just consider that I've restated my position as well.

 

there - that saved a LOT of typing!

[saltheart]

It's been a long time since I've read words that put the issue as clearly, succinctly, and matter-of-factly as Roosters. Thanks, Rooster. Well said, and well done. Those are words worth copying and remembering. Those are words that don't beat around the bush, but cut right to the chase.

 

There has grown, in this country, a genera of folks who define 'respect' as..., "If you don't agree with my position, then you don't respect me." There could be little that is further than the truth. Ours is the right to disagree, but live and let live, but not in my house, nor in my family, nor in my private interests. And organizations to which I belong will be those that believe as I do. The members shall be those with whom I can share common interests, goals, values, and beliefs, be they religious in nature, or more earthly found. Those with whom I disagree may carry on as well as they can, as will I. But in many matters, the twain shall never meet beyond a simple recognition of a right to exist. And I will not feel ill at ease not inviting them into my world. Nor will I seek paths into theirs.

 

Again, well said Rooster. And well done.