SpiralScouts

[Eamonn]

Some time back, I spend a week end with a Greek Orthodox priest, who is also a Scout Leader. A real nice fellow. He told me the following joke.

The Pope was in the Vatican, when the gold phone rang. The Gold phone is the direct line to the Big Boss.

 

The Pope answered the phone,after the normal small talk. God, said to the Pope,

"I have some good news and some bad news for you."

The Pope, asked for the good news first.

"Well JP, I have been looking down at you all and I think that there are just too many religions.I think that the time has come for us juat to have one."

The Pope was overjoyed, and said

"Thank you Lord, you don't know how happy this has made me, it is something that I have wanted to see all my life. But Lord, what is the bad news? "

There was a slight pause and God answered

"I'm calling from Salt Lake City"(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

[packsaddle]

"Good one, Eamonn", he said, laughing nervously.

BW & littlebillie, Nice message!

[mk9750]

Rooster7,

 

Are you saying your religion is better than mine? If so, I think I take exception to that. We have slightly different beliefs about the same God, and his Son. The biggest two of which I am aware are the Body and Blood of Christ in the form of bread and wine and the virginity of Mary. These are dogma issues on which both our churches stand firm. There are also issues of doctrine, but these are man made rules that I won't take a stand one way or the other as being right or wrong.

 

I respect you for supporting your believes fervently. But I very much hope that you are not allowing that my denomination is equal to yours.

 

Mark

[Rooster7]

God is wise enough to know that the spiritual needs of 20th Century Kansans, and 15th century Plains Indians and !Kung of Africa and ... so on ... all differ.

 

Yes, certainly God is wise enough to know everyones spiritual needs. Whether or not our spiritual needs are different from one another is very debatable. Heres another question, and one I feel is more relevant Are we wise enough to know the spiritual needs of God?

 

He can show many faces, and in His infinite wisdom and kindness does so...

 

Due to differing religions contradictory faiths, millions have fought and died. Why would God create this source of conflict by presenting numerous faces? How would this be an expression of kindness? Perhaps God is not the one who is presenting the many faces. God has only one true face. God is not the author of confusion and conflict.

 

[acco40]

mk9750, you make the same mistake many Scoutmasters do. Just like the fact the a troop is not the Scoutmasters (should not use the phrase "my troop"), I don't believe you (or Rooster7 for that matter) "have" a religion. You may belong or identify to a religious denomination or organization but I would hesitate to call it "yours."

[mk9750]

acco40,

 

Semantics only, but point taken.

 

I use "my" religion, and "my" Troop, and "my" company all in the same way. they identify my affiliation, not my ownership. They are not intended to mislead. I am sorry if they do. But to type out the exactly perfect way to describe my relationship with any of these would make my already too long posts unbearable even to me.

 

Mark

[Rooster7]

Are you saying your religion is better than mine? If so, I think I take exception to that.

 

I dont think I have made any pointed remarks concerning the differences in my faith verses Catholicism or any other sect of Christianity. There are some self-professed Christian faiths, which I reject. I wont describe these faiths as being less, just false.

 

We have slightly different beliefs about the same God, and his Son. The biggest two of which I am aware are the Body and Blood of Christ in the form of bread and wine and the virginity of Mary. These are dogma issues on which both our churches stand firm.

 

I think there are many other differences that are worth noting. However, I havent drawn the conclusion that Catholicism is a false faith. I do feel that they have some false teachings. But, Im not convinced that these teachings should drive a wedge between Catholics and other Christians.

 

Just for clarification, what is it about the Virgin Mary do you presume we disagree?

 

There are also issues of doctrine, but these are man made rules that I won't take a stand one way or the other as being right or wrong.

 

I wouldnt describe doctrine as man made issues. Doctrine is derived from the Word. Depending on how one interprets the Word, I think doctrinal issues can be a justifiable reason for division.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[Fat Old Guy]

"Are you saying your religion is better than mine?"

 

If my religion wasn't better than yours, why would I follow it?

 

 

 

 

[Rooster7]

mk9750,

 

Are you saying your religion is better than mine? If so, I think I take exception to that.

 

Just a couple more points of interest

 

1) I was raised Catholic. I am familiar with most of their teachings (at least the basics). My family (mother, father, brothers, sister, etc.) remains in the faith. Since I love my family, I have a very strong interest in viewing Catholicism as a legitimate sect of Christianity. I dont think I have blinded myself to reality, but I do have reason to be biased.

 

2) Ironically, it is your faith (forgive me acco40) Catholicism, that judges other Christian sects as invalid and forbids them from partaking in the Lords Supper. In other words, if you believe and follow your faith, you must view my faith as inferior in fact, you must view it as false.

 

3) Intellectually, I dont have a problem with Catholics viewing themselves as being exclusively saved, and others (even other Christians) as being damned. Im confident that particular teaching (as well as some others) is wrong. If I werent, I would not have left the faith. Still, there are a number of Catholics, perhaps even most that honestly believe this teaching to be true. As a practitioner of another Christian faith, should I be resentful? If so, why? My point is this - If you believe that God has shown you the way to salvation and everlasting peace and joy, then why would you reject it? As Acco40 alluded to, it's not about what we want to believe (i.e., "my" faith), it's about what we know in our hearts and minds to be true.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Rooster, for the many months, even years that we have posted together I have come to respect your opinions as well thought out and for the most part rational. I do take exception though with your thought that most catholics consider non-catholics as damned. Considers this paragraph:

 

This is a quote explaining the ROman Catholics view on Non-Catholics.

 

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."

 

this is taken from: http://www.beliefnet.com/story/39/story_3960_1.html

 

In the very least, here is one Roman Catholic who doesnt think all non-catholics are damned.

 

And FOG, of course every member of a faith should believe they are a member of the better faith. But that member should also realize what is better for them, may not be better for their neighbor. A srict Hindu, observing every rite and tradition and law for 20 or more years might have a very hard time converting to Chritianity just because someone shows them a bible and says follow this book to salvation. I dont think the Hindu is damned at all. We all look at the world from our singular unique perspective born out of the sum total of our personal experiences. We all must follow society's rules (laws), but our religious beliefs are up to us (Is this a great country or what?), we are free to beleive what we "know" to be true, and should respect the beliefs of others as they "know" their truths with an intensity that matches our own

[mk9750]

Rooster7,

 

I did not post in order to begin a debate on whose religion is better. And I won't start now.

 

I understand that most Protestant faiths reject the premise that Mary was a virgin at the time Jesus was conceived and immediately after. If that is not true of your denomination, I apoligize for a wrong assumption.

 

Dogma in the Catholic Church is the undeniables: Jesus is God's Son, He came to earth to suffer and die to save us, He exists in a real way in the bread and wine when Mass is celebrated, we must confess our sins in order to obtain God's absolution, and many other points. The doctrine of the Catholic Church is man made: You can't eat meat on Friday, you must make the Sign of the Cross, abortion is a sin, and many, many others. I used the examples I did to make a point. some Doctrine, although instituted by man, is correct, probably because it is Divinely inspired. Other Doctrine, like the meat on Friday, is very obviously not correct. Can you imaging anyone going to hell because he had a hamburger on the wrong day of the week? But for years and years, we Catholics held this Doctrine to be Divinely inspired also.

 

I truly believe you speak about a position of Doctrine that has since been abandoned by the Catholic Church, and the vast majority of its members, when you say that we reject others' religions. You are right, we do not invite you to share in the Body and Blood of Christ, but that is only because no other religion believes that what was bread and wine IS the real Body and Blood. Some Protestant faiths see these articles as a symbol of Christ, but not Christ Himself. If I again assume something that is not true, I am sorry.

 

But this discussion leads directly back to the discussion about what happens if what we believe isn't true. If you don't believe that it really is the Body and Blood of Christ, but it is, what will become of you? I'm sorry, but I fully believe that your heaven will be the same as mine, and we will share it together. And I think if you polled most Catholics, you'd find the same belief. I know it wasn't like that 40 years ago, and pockets of Catholics still hold us as the one true faith. But the feeling of exclusivity goes both ways, and I'll tell you a story to make that point.

 

When my family lived in Charlotte, NC, there were only eight Catholic parishes in the area. They were very difficult to get to from where we lived, and we were very hit-and-miss as far as our attendence goes.

 

My wife became very good friends with a neighbor who belonged to a nondenominational church. We went there a few times, and, in an effort to get our children involved in religious training, we enrolled them in Sunday School at this church. My wife's friend asked my wife to help out with Sunday School, and my wife was excited to be of help. She complete all of the paperwork, and all that was left was an interview with the Pastor. During the interview, he asked where my wife had migrated from, as her accent was obvious (What, northern Ohio has an accent! No way!). When she said where she was from, he asked what church she had attended here, as he was familiar with the area. When my wife named a Catholic church, the Pastor excused himself and my wife's friend. The friend came back in and apoligized, saying that Catholics were not welcome at their church. In this case, non-denominational must not have meant Catholic, too.

 

My point is it surely isn't just Catholics that feel they have the right of way to God, and I think you should find that today, that opinnion is in the minority in the Catholic church.

 

To answer FOG's question, you ae right. Do I think that what Catholics believe is generally more correct than other religions? Yes. Do I think that we are the only ones who could be right? No. Do I believe there is more than one path to God? I'm not sure. I hope so, for both myself and all others who lead good lives.

 

Mark

[Rooster7]

This is a quote explaining the Roman Catholics view on Non-Catholics.

 

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."

 

OGE,

 

If you read the website closely, the above does not address all non-Catholics, but those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church. That description does not apply to most non-Catholics in the United States. Millions of Protestants are not ignorant of the Catholic Church. That being case, we who do not accept the Catholic Churchs teachings would fall under this assertion (on the same website):

 

"Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

 

Regardless, my posting was never intended to besmirch what most Catholics or their hierarchy may believe. Its not really relevant if most do or do not believe this teaching. I was trying to make the point that whatever one sincerely believes; it is not a matter of choice or politeness. A belief is either alive or its not. I cannot give birth to, or kill my own beliefs, any more than I can make my eyes see the color green in place of the color red. Or as a friend of mine once preached, if belief in and love for God was a food say beets, then you better get down on your knees and pray that God gives you a taste for beets. You cant fake it or manufacture it. You either like the taste of beets or you dont. Only God can change that fact. Conversely, if sin was say ice cream, you better pray to God that you develop a dislike for ice cream. We are what we are. We need God to make us something different.

 

of course every member of a faith should believe they are a member of the better faith. But that member should also realize what is better for them, may not be better for their neighbor.

 

Christianity is not about better or worse. Its about the true God. This is Biblical teaching. So when one professes a belief in Christ, hes professing to know the one and only true God. If/When a Christian professes that others may find salvation outside of Christ; he is denying the teachings of the Bible - the same document that provides a foundation for his faith. By definition, a Christian cannot believe in the validity of other faiths. Thus, I know in my heart, my neighbor would be better off knowing Christ.

 

A strict Hindu, observing every rite and tradition and law for 20 or more years might have a very hard time converting to Chritianity just because someone shows them a bible and says follow this book to salvation.

 

A Hindus conversion, anyones conversion for that matter, is dependent on Gods will and efforts. We may provide the vehicle but hes the gas. So, yes, waving a bible around has little effect if God is not behind the effort. However, the bible teaches us that God answers those who seek Him.

 

I dont think the Hindu is damned at all. We all look at the world from our singular unique perspective born out of the sum total of our personal experiences. We all must follow society's rules (laws), but our religious beliefs are up to us (Is this a great country or what?), we are free to beleive what we "know" to be true, and should respect the beliefs of others as they "know" their truths with an intensity that matches our own.

 

I respect the rights of a Hindu and all other folks who embrace a faith different than mine. I respect their right to believe what they want to believe. I understand that they may in fact believe what they believe - intently. However, salvation is not within my domain. I cannot attest with absolute certainty as to what God will do, or not do, for a specific person or situation. I only know what His Word says. The Bible clearly tells me that salvation cannot be obtained without Christ. If a Hindu is given salvation without Christ, its not my position to question God. However, this possibility would not be consistent with His Word. From my lifes experience, I have found the Bible to be very consistent. I would be extremely surprised if it didnt remain so for all time.

 

and should respect the beliefs of others

 

A small distinction needs to be made. I respect the right of others to believe as they do. I dont necessarily respect what they believe.

 

as they "know" their truths

 

There can be multiple truths if one is describing the characteristics of God (For example: God is righteous. And, God is loving.). There can be multiple truths if one is describing man (For example: We are sinful. And, we can give glory to God). However, faiths that contradict one another cannot be referred to as truths. By definition, by all understanding of language, if Christianity is true, than all other faiths must be false. Im not trying to convert anyone Im just trying to get folks to agree to simple logic. Else, if this simple premise cannot be accepted, conversation is futile.

 

with an intensity that matches our own.

 

I agree. The intensity of ones belief does not definitively validate ones faith as truth. It is possible to be passionately wrong. That is why it is important that we ask ourselves, Why do I believe what I believe? and pray about it.

 

Mark,

 

In case you missed it the first time, Im not claiming the Catholic faith to be false. I never rejected you as a brother in Christ. And I understand that there is a mindless rejection of Catholics by some Protestant churchesjust more evidence that we dont always think and/or pray before we act. I referenced a Catholic teaching in an attempt to illustrate a point, which Im not sure I conveyed well. At the risk of repeating myself, my beliefs concerning the narrow road to salvation is a Bible teaching. I fervently believe the Bible to be true because all of my experiences and Gods Holy Spirit proclaims its truth in my daily life. The acceptance of other faiths (as being true, even for others only) would be tantamount to rejecting my own faith. Its just not going to happen. Gods Word does not teach this. It does not ring true in my heart or mind.

 

[SR540Beaver]

mk9750,

 

You said, "I understand that most Protestant faiths reject the premise that Mary was a virgin at the time Jesus was conceived and immediately after."

 

Is that what you really meant to say? My degree is in Religion from a Southern Baptist University. I've studied many different religions and denominations. I'm hard pressed to think of a Christian denomination that does not believe in the virgin birth of Christ. We do believe from scriptural evidence that Mary had other children after Jesus meaning that she did lose her virginity later. But I know of no one that says she was not a virgin when Jesus was born.

[Rooster7]

As someone who has been involved in the Presbyterian and Methodist churches, I have never heard that teaching either. To my knowledge, the Virgin Mary is accepted by all Christian faiths. However, Protestant faiths do not encourage believers to pray to the Virgin Mary or "Saints". Most Christian faiths would consider it sacrilege to pray to anyone but God. In Protestant circles, we are the saints. That label simply means youre a disciple of Christ.

[packsaddle]

mk9750, I agree with KWC57. My memorization of the Apostle's Creed included "...born of the Virgin Mary...". None of the protestant flavors I know reject this although their wording may differ.

 

Here's the edited part: Mark, I also want to add that although you are free to interpret Rooster's words to mean that he thinks his faith (or whatever) is superior to yours, this is not relevant. Your faith is yours and, ultimately, you are the only person who can question it fairly. Neither you nor Rooster nor anyone else possesses an objective basis for either comparing or judging the faith of another person. You have your own faith alone, however you arrived at it, with which to work - and that is personal and incomprehensible to anyone else.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)