SpiralScouts

[Wallace]

To bring things back around...

 

REVERENT

A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

 

How can a person swear to uphold this 12th point of the Scout Law and still be polytheistic?

How can the BSA allow someone to join and list this religion knowing that they cannot be faithful to both?

[eisely]

Hey, if the supreme court can ignore the plain meaning of the 14th amendment, we can ignore the use of the singular in the scout oath and law.

[littlebillie]

Wallace,

 

there IS a Hindu religious award, and Hinduism is a polytheistic faith. thought you should know...

[Eamonn]

While I accept that, yes I am guilty of making fun of the stereotype cartoon image of a Druid.

If you go to my posting in "Taking Up The Challenge", I hope you will see that I do not bear any ill feelings or malice towards anyones religious beliefs.

However, having said that I do think that maybe some people are being a little over sensitive.

[eisely]

Littlebillie is right on. I thought of this after my prior post when I was away from my computer. Polytheism per se cannot be an objection to the BSA not having a religious award for Wiccan. Nor can it be held to contradict the scout oath and law.

[Bob White]

Polytheism is not objected to by the BSA and the only reason the Wiccan religious awards are not recognized by the BSA and Wiccan based organizations are barred from being Chartering Organizations is their insistance to include homosexual members.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Twocubdad]

How does BSA as an organization show respect for different faiths when if denies full inclusion of a faith based on it's stance on the homosexuality issue? In all the world of foreign/strange/nutty religions (at least in our western Judeo-Christian view), why is homosexuality a litmus test for a faith to be included in the religious emblem program?

 

Separate membership policies and the statement of religious principles for a moment. In otherwords, let's keep in mind that there is a difference between approving an organization as a chartered partner and honoring a religious emblem to an individual Scout. BSA has a legitimate interest in seeing that the organizations it works with will support it's membership policies. But that's very different from telling a Wiccan or Unitarian boy his faith isn't recognized by BSA because of what is at essence a theological issue -- or worse yet, a political issue.

 

And to those of you with little or no sense of humor when it comes to religious matters: PHHHHHUUUUUUTTTTTTTTT!

 

If you want religious jokes, I can (and often do) tell Presbyterian jokes for hours on end. And don't even get me started on the Baptists or Catholics. Lighten up.

 

Off for a few days. Everyone have a happy and safe Independence Day. Don't forget to put out your flag.

 

[Bob White]

Easily Twocubdad. The BSA does recognize Wiccan as a religion and for that reason allows adult and youth members who profess Wiccan as their religion. The BSA also allows Adult and Youth Members of the Unitarian Church.

 

A Wiccan scout can earn the Wiccan religious award and is welcome to display it in whatever fashion the Wiccan organization allows, with on exception. The Wiccan Religious Award is not recognized for wear on the Boy Scout Uniform. The reason is that it's requirements do not meet the standards of the BSA. In addition Wiccans could have become Chartering Organizations, however they told the BSA that they would not support the membership restrictions on homosexuals. So they basically removed themselves as COs.

 

So the BSA continues to recognize a myriad of religious beliefs and they also continue to remain steadfast in there denial of homosexuals. Since homosexuality is not a religion it is not relevent to your argument.

[SR540Beaver]

Forgive me for making a religious joke, but I'm poking fun at my own and Twocub's churches. We Baptists always referred to the Presbyterians as God's Chosen Frozen.

[Twocubdad]

Of course homosexuality isn't a religion. But a tolerance for and the inclusion of homosexuals may be a religious belief of some faiths. Given BSA's very broad view of religions principles, why do we judge some faiths on that one belief? As you wrote, Bob, "the only reason the Wiccan religious awards are not recognized by the BSA ... is their insistance to include homosexual members."

 

Heck, a few votes in the other direction (okay, a few hundred-thousand votes) and the Presbyterians could be in that same catagory.

 

I'm with you on the issue of approving these groups as chartered partners. Any group which refuses to agree to any BSA policy should not be a CO. But given the breadth of the statement on religious principles, given the fact that earning a religious emblem is between a boy and his "church," and given that BSA pointedly states that religious emblems are not a Scout program and no endorsment is inferred, it is hypocritical to sanction some faiths and exclude others. Especially when it is based on a peripheral issue such as compliance with membership policies. It does not show a reverence toward those faiths, as required by the Scout Law.

 

No offense taken, kwc. Growing up, my old Presbyterian minister used to refer to the congregation "God's Frozen People" -- from the pulpit!

[Bob White]

Heck, a few votes in the other direction (okay, a few hundred-thousand votes) and the Presbyterians could be in that same catagory.

 

And if that happens before the BSA changes the values of scouting then they will be dropped as chartered partners and their Religious awards will be removed from the uniform.

 

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[SR540Beaver]

Twocubs,

 

Setting religion aside, most cultures throughout history has regarded homosexuality as immoral. All traditional religions that I know of have always regarded homosexuality as immoral and a sin. While there have been occasions in history where homosexuality was not looked down on, overall it has. While homosexuality may be a religious issue for some scouters, I think the BSA rejects it strictly on moral grounds and safety concerns. No, not all homosexuals are pedophiles. But look at what has happened in the Catholic church. Putting homosexual men around young boys and teens makes most parents uncomfortable. There is less worry and risk over allowing your son to be with men who are not sexually attracted to other males than there is allowing them around gay men. Safety and morals are the key to restrictions on gays in BSA, not religion. That some religions have decided to embrace homosexuality as "normal" is why their religious emblem is not recognized by the BSA.

[NWScouter]

I wonder too what will happen to the awards and relationships with Lutheran, Episcopal, United Church in Christ, Methodist and other large mainstream Christian churches and even Jewish groups that are defining their relationships with homosexuals. Some of these groups have gay clergy and or lay leadership. Most of these groups have been long time supporters of the Boy Scouts and have a large percentage of BSA members and charter partners. When action is taken in next few years by their national bodies, what is the BSA going to do? Write off a third of its charter partners? Tell the youth members of these groups that they cant earn their religious awards because their beliefs are wrong? This subject is not going away.

[neicie]

I am impressed with the responses posted on this thread. I am happy to see it has not become a religious flame war. You moderate yourselves very well. You have shown that you can agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 

FYI.....Paganism includes many religions, and to break it down even more, denominations within those religions. Wicca is a religion within Paganism, with its own denominations. Since Pagans do not proselytize, I will not go on about Paganism, but will answer specific questions off list. There are plenty of Net resources available if you want to research these religions.

 

Old Grey Eagle: You were already forgiven. Thanks for your consideration. Actually, I think poking fun at something you dont understand is a step toward acceptance. At least you are out of denial. Pagans poke fun at themselves, just like many other groups. The Redneck Pagan jokes are some of the best. A word of warning though, many Pagan people DO take offense to this type of humor, so trolling on a Wiccan list is not advised....

 

Personally, I feel that BSA has shot themselves in the foot with their policy on homosexuals. I left my position as Cub Master because I strongly disagree with this policy. I realize that I cant fight the good ole boy machine that the BSA has become, and others realize this too. As a result, new scout organizations are forming. SpiralScouts International is one of these groups. They have an anti-discriminatory policy, which appeals to many families.

 

As NWScouter mentioned, this subject wont go away. Thanks for everyones comments on the topic.

 

[SR540Beaver]

nwscouter,

 

We'll cross that bridge when we come to it. Yes, their charters could be in jeopardy if their values change from what the BSA's values are. Remember, the chartering organization does not own or drive the BSA. By being a CO, they are "liscensed" and agree to operate the BSA program for a year by the BSA rules. While the BSA may reject their request for a charter, it really is more of a case of the CO changing their outlook and no longer supporting the BSA values that costs them their charter. If these "mainstream" denominations change (which means they are actually leaving the mainstream) that does not mean the BSA must also change. BSA will survive. Their will be other organizations willing to pick up the slack. Also, the BSA can't tell a boy he can't earn his religious emblem, but they can tell him it isn't recognized by scouting and can't be displayed on his uniform. He can still earn it and wear it on anything he wants except for his uniform.