My thoughts on sheath knives.

[willysjeep]

If I may quote the handbook for a moment. "Note: The Boy Scouts of America does not encourage the use of large sheath knives." from page 78 of the handbook. Notice the word 'large'. To me this would mean that smaller sheath knives, like the ones the BSA once marketed, would still be acceptable.

 

I personally don't think any knife with a blade under five inches long, which is the legal limit for carry in most localaties, is really that large. I honestly feel that this rule was written to keep kids from bringing along 12 inch bowie knives, not sensible 3 or 4 inch utility type fixed blade knife. In fact, most cook kits contain a knife much larger than the average sheath knife, so if size alone makes the knife dangerous then those should be taken out too. Fillet knives are also not usually objected to, even though they are usually just as long if not longer than the old boyscout sheath knife.

 

As for the objection that sheath knives are only hunting tools, how then do you justufy teaching archery or shooting sports? They have very little practical use beyond entertainment and hunting, where as the sheath knife is useful in many other tasks. Please, if you honestly think that sheath knives don't belong in scouting then tell the troop that it's what you think, not that National is behind it all and you are just going along with them.

[eisely]

I had a sheath knife when I was a scout. When I became an adult volunteer many years later I was told that sheath knives are forbidden, but that is just another urban legend. G2SS mentions but does not prohibit sheath knives.

 

Having said all that, sheath knives should be discouraged. There is nothing in the way of ordinary camp chores that a folding knife cannot do as well as a sheath knife. And with a folding knife you can get other useful tools. Why carry the extra weight of a larger single purpose tool?

 

It is my understanding that under California law, any blade longer than two inches is considered a weapon. The hijackers on 9/11 used blades far shorter than that to do their dirty work. Why buy into extra risk with sheath knives?

[OldGreyEagle]

While they may look good, I am not sure of the utility of a sheath knfe. I saw my father field dress a 210 pound deer with a three inch jackknife

[le Voyageur]

OGE

 

Gotta think that your dad must of been one very knowledgeable outdoorsman. Most greenhorns tend to get the biggest knife they can find to dress out game. Heck, a musket flint will dress out a deer with no problem.

 

But, I do like carrying a fixed blade with a serrated edge on the river, beats trying to open a folder with wet fingers in an emergency...

[eisely]

le V.

 

You will notice that I referred to "ordinary camp chores." For real whitewater experiences and scuba diving people should have sheath knives and be properly trained in their use.

[willysjeep]

You have a point but a single blade folder is at just as much of a disadvantage as a fixed blade, and it is not discouraged as often as the sheath knife is. Many of us prefer nostalgic equipment over more modern lightweight gear just because of the feeling of tradition we get when we use it. A canvas tent is no good any more for backpacking, but might make you remember your scouting roots if you camp under one on a Camp-O-Ree where you don't need to carry too far. The whole goal of scouting is not to only promote ultralight backpacking either. Many of us enjoy using the older style equipment just because, and there is really no saftey reason why we shouldn't be able to under the right circumstances. Certainly I wouldn't carry a steel mess kit or a rectangular sleeping bag if weight and functionality were my only concern.

 

Also I just like sheath knives, Marble Arms Co. is right out side my door so I just about have to! But then again I must remember that there is a place for sheath knives, and there is a place not to have them. No flame intended here or anything but I don't think it's necisairy to ban something just because it isn't the very best tool for the job (Look at all the other junk boys bring with!) Good Luck! Good Night!(This message has been edited by willysjeep)

[nldscout]

I think that what you carry should be a personnal choice. I like a folding pocket knife most of time, but for hunting I carry a small 4in blade sheath. when you are gutting a deer its easier to clean off and carry too

 

 

[hops_scout]

I prefer to carry a multi tool in a side pouch with a MiniMag Lite and a few other things. Also, I have small locking blade knife in a carabiner. It works well for what I would need it for.

[matuawarrior]

Knives are tools. Like all tools, the size of the knife depends on the job that it will do. There are some situations where a pocket knife may not be the suitable tool for a job but for everyday "camp" chores it will very well suffice.

 

Now I bring 3 knives to camp. A swiss army pocket knife for around the campsite. I bring along a 10" trailmaster with heavy leather sheath for lite to medium trail or site clearing. The last blade is an ontario machete with plastic sheath for heavy to hard clearing. The only knife that stays in its sheath on my belt is the pocket knife while the other two have its own carrying belt strap and carried only when there is a job to do. When it's not in use, both the trailmaster and machete are stored in the quartermaster tool bin.

 

We do provide extra safety training for for our scouts on the use of sheath knives like the bowie or machete.

 

Matua

 

[eisely]

Matua,

 

Trail clearing? Camp site clearing? These are major no-no's here on the mainland. Perhaps on Guam there are no trails, or things just grow so fast that leave-no-trace is not an issue. Tell us more.

[saltheart]

Personally, I think a knife is a knife is a knife....except when it's a sword. And that, I believe, is where the intent of the phrase "...does not encourage the use of large sheath knives" lies.

 

I have a rather large collection of knives. Each and every one has a purpose. Each and every one was purchased with a need or plan in mind. None of them are swords. None of them are "Rambo" beasts. None of them are cheap, overly fancy, good-for-nothing-but-looking-at knives like some of the junk one sees in stores or in magazines. Oh, and many of them are folding knives. But the greater percentage are fixed blade sheath knives. And I've used them camping for many years. I've never taken more than 2 on any trip. And if I take 2, one is small and folding, and the other is larger and fixed. I use them for cooking, for firewood preparation, for trail clearing (if necessary), for tent stake making, for plain ol' whittlin', and for just about any purpose I might need a tool. Keeps the load light if I have one thing that can do many, many things.

 

And that is the sense of importance and place and need I used to impress upon both the Scouts in the troop, and the parents of the Scouts in the troop when discussing equipment needs and safety. I had a habit of matching the boy to the tool in my mind. Watching early on how he handled himself, how he paid attention (or not) when working at meetings and on trips. Picking out the little character traits and behavioral patterns in the first year. Watching to see what importance each Scout placed on the equipment he used, the rules of such use, and both the written and taught, and the common sense safety rules that ran throughout the troop.

 

I never told a Scout he could not have or use this or that knife in the troop. But using my observations (and those of the SPL who was taught to "see" his fellow Scouts in a hopefully similar fashion) the "needs" of each Scout were attended to by the adult leadership, the senior Scout leadership, and the parent corps. If there's one thing I'm proud of regarding my tenure with the troop, it's that the "suggestions" made by those "attending" to the path each Scout walked, and examples set by those each Scout followed, created an environment where things that were not necessary for life in Scouting or in the woods were hardly ever around. No Gameboys. No loud radios. And no swords. Sheath knives were there. And they were used for the Scouting purposes necessary. That's all.

 

As with any material possession in life, what one uses it for comes in large measure from how one is taught to use it, and the opportunites one is given to practice that use, be observed, retrained when necessary, and held accountable for his actions. Knives are no different. And for my money, I always preferred that the boys learned the "how and where" of knives in Scouting, not on the street or somewhere else.

 

 

[matuawarrior]

eisely,

 

We constantly have to clear back the jungle everytime we go camping at a number of our unit chosen sites. Once we cleared an area for a good size troop with patrol sites one month only to go back the next month and clear the site again because the jungle grew back to 6 to 10 feet jungle. Because of our Tropical weather, small brushes that we call 'trees' tend to grow faster especially during the wet season. We have two seasons here in Guam: wet and dry.

Were blessed if we get to camp in a grassy clearing but that too has to be maintained and its rare unless you know the family who owns the property. It's not surprising to see units take lawn mowers or bush cutters to camp here.

 

I remember a couple of years ago when council brought out a trainer for Leave No Trace. I thought this guy was pulling a practical joke on us. He told us that we could not cut down live trees. That caused so much uproar, I thought the guy was going to get lynched. The local scouters were so upset and I was a new scoutmaster just observing the "intense fellowship".

 

As per trails, there are some that are maintained by the local government. We follow LNT on those trails but for the trails that lead to ancient village sites that are not maintained. Break out the Machete and Trailmaster. During those times of trailblazing, most times it takes an hour to clear 50 feet depending on the jungle. There are times that my unit had to camp along the trail we had just cut and were still a mile or so from our destination.

 

A couple of years ago, a Boy scout unit here went on a hike along Guam's Southern Rim. It was supposed to be a day hike but turned out to be an overnighter due to the swordgrass being so thick on the hills that the Scoutmaster had his scouts bed down along the trail. They were from a military base so they didn't bring a machete along. Anyway, one mom got worried and called 911 and the DE. Guam Fire, the Coast Guard, Navy HC-5, Guam Police and other rescue units were dispatched to look for these "lost" scouts. The next morning while the rescuers were making there way up the mountain the scouts were walking down. That unit to this day always gets ribbed for that incident. At least they made the local news that night.

 

We do follow LNT as much as we can here, there are times however that we do have to clear areas to make a decent campsite. Every unit here has a machete in their wood tools locker for these occasions, even the unit that had to overnight on the trail.

 

Matua

[dan]

Wow, sounds like a lot of work, just to camp, I guess we have it pretty easy, but your scouts have to learning so much!

 

And i carry a 2.5" swiss army knife, the scouts are just amazed when I whip that baby out! I am 6'4" and around 230 pounds, but they see that my little knife cuts rope just as good as there big old knife! usually it cuts it a little better, it is keep sharp.

They all ask why such a little knife, I tell them if I have to carry it around, it better be light! Of course I wouldn't want to clear a jungle with it!

[Eagledad]

I feel this is a PC issue. More of perception than utility. A boy walking around with his knife strapped to his side is not as PC as the scout with a knife hidden in the pocket.

 

There is the percpetion that sheath knives a much bigger than the folding knives. I carry one of each while hunting and my sheath is very small and light. I use it when I need a tool put under a lot of stress like hides or bone.

 

My experiences with scouts and knives is that sheath knives are safer than folding knives. When used under a lot of stress, some cheap folding knives can fold back into the fingers or break at the handle. I know that most knives lock very well, but some don't lock at all. So on the purely safety side, I feel more comfortable with scouts using sheath knifes. But very few of our scouts use sheath anymore because the the new high-strength lightweight folding knives are the style.

 

Have a great scouting day.

 

Barry

[littlebillie]

there's another safety issue, and that is the sheath itself hanging up. Some activities - rock climbing, say - just don't need that kind of possible problem. a pocket knife is just as available under most circumstances, and really should be the first choice for the boys.

 

notice I said first choice tho - not only choice. once you have a good p'knife, you can look at other blades. with sheaths, the adults need to be aware that more kids are going to say "show us THAT" - once you have that in mind, you can work with it.