The local option on gay membership in BSA

[tjhammer]

mk9750 said: In your example, the status quo changed.The status quo also changed in the BSA. This was never an issue when I joined Scouting as a boy, and while it may have been brewing at national levels by the time I became an adult, it certainly was not known to be a real issue outside private circles. The BSA specifically drafted this policy banning gay members in the mid to late 80's. Some may argue it was always a policy and only needed to be articulated in recent times because of external pressures that called the question, but I think that is a leap. In reality, this is an issue of moral definition, and BSA has historically and publicly left such definition up to the local units, parents and sponsoring partners. Unfortunately, the rules and status quo most definitely changed. (And even to this date, I still have not had to sign any membership application that states I support the BSA policy on homosexual members, and the policy has only been vaguely defined to me.)

 

Your other point, that the neighborhood is a public accommodation and Scouting is not, is a VERY valid point, and one with which I completely agree. I have said many times that I support the ruling of the Supreme Court that lets BSA define their own membership standards. I don't think anyone should be able to force us to change our position in this issue (or any other similar), but I do think we should of our own volition. To go back to your analysis of my analogy, you're right it's perfectly legal for the BSA to do what they are doing, but that still doesn't make it the right thing to do.

 

 

 

Finally, in answer to the question about whether I am "out" any where else in my life... The answer is yes and no. My sexuality is simply not that much of a defining identity for me, at work or in social circles even. It's really largely irrelevant to me and to those I associate with. Some people I associate with know (only because I don't lie about it or take extraordinary means to conceal it and they are so close to me that it is impossible to not eventually know or hear through the gossip circle), and some people don't (only because it's just not pertinent). Yes, Scouting's policy has also played a significant role in my not "coming out" further... I don't feel the time is right in the Scouting arena for me to leave the "neighborhood", when I can achieve more by staying in the "neighborhood" and quietly working to return to the "status quo" I once new.

[Bob White]

Merlyn again does not give a clear picture of the scouting movement. First, how is it the BSA is to remove reigious foundations but accept the UU's an Wiccan religious Awards? Isn't that a catch-22.

 

Unitarians and Wiccans are not barred from membership as individuals as long as they accept and meet the membership requirements. Most Unitarians are not Athiestic and there are Wicca's who do meet the BSA membership requirements for religious obligation.

 

The two "organizations" do not qualify as charter organizations or with their religious awards since they both insist on allowing homosexuals as members in thier units, and their religious awards include philosophies not in keeping with those of the Boy Scouts of America and so are not recognized by the BSA.

 

They are recognized as religions, and their individual followers are considered for membership. The organizations are not acceptable sponsors and their awards are not approved for wear on the Boy Scout Uniform.

 

To say you would accept Boy Scouts without religion is like accepting hamburger if it didn't have any animal meat in it.

 

Do not be decieved by Merlyn. His goal is not to change Scouting. His goal is to end the program, period.

 

Bob White

 

 

TJhammer,

Your historic recollection of the BSA is not accurate. Membership has always been controlled by the national office. The rules of membership have always been that the CO can be more restrictive but not less. What has changed is the media's interest in reporting this topic and the speed with which news is capable of being spread, along with stronger lobbying abilities of special interest groups.

 

But the ideals of scouting have remained consistent.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[littlebillie]

Bob,

 

I chose a particular verb with full knowledge of a certain history, and full knowledge of the verb; I stand by it. "Abandoned" fits the situation that occurred better than you know, and it is used without sentiment. Just as one abandons a claim, a copyright, or even a lawsuit - contracts and cub scouts can be abandoned as well.

 

A petty cavil, perhaps, but thank you for your opinions. "The only people who abandon scouting are those who believe in scouting but who do not support it verbally, physically or financially." Assuming they have never supported scouting, this is not abandonment. They have chosen not to support it, they ignore its needs - but if they have never entered into a relationship with an organization, they cannot abandon it.

[evmori]

merlyn,

Make no difference if they were kicking out gays when you were in Cubs. You said you didn't say the God part thereby making you nothing more than a hypocrite! Plain & simple!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

littlebillie writes:

Merlyn,

 

So the GSUSA can meet at a public school while the BSA cannot?

 

No, I'm not talking about units meeting at schools, I'm talking about units chartered by public schools and other government agencies.

 

The BSA itself says that a unit chartered by organization X is that organization's youth group; they are just using the BSA program as part of its (organization X's) youth group.

 

Government agencies can't run a "no atheists" youth group under any circumstances.

 

Any public school that has facilities open to noncurricular groups has to allow anyone, regardless of their viewpoint, so GSUSA and BSA can meet at the school, just like any other group (including groups you might not want).

 

Additionally, does this mean that an atheist with a conscience is deemed spiritual by the girl scouts? Since this is something I'm interested in at a number of levels for a number of reasons, can you point me to any site that discusses girl scouts that have "come out" religiously - as total atheists, and self-declared as without a spiritual side - and what the national body response has been?

 

Here are a bunch of letters about Darrell Lambert being expelled from the BSA for being an atheist, including a letter from Susan Lundman of the Girl Scouts Totem Council, who says "The Girl Scout organization is secular and is founded on American democratic principles. The organization values diversity and inclusiveness and therefore does not discriminate."

 

http://www.thesunlink.com/opinion/2002/november/1110let.html

 

Most atheist girl scout stories are just anecdotal, because they don't turn into court cases. Here's one:

 

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=4sdvla%24n55%40piglet.cc.utexas.edu&oe=UTF-8

 

And like I said before, I don't know of the GSUSA kicking anyone out for being an atheist.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Bob White writes:

Merlyn again does not give a clear picture of the scouting movement. First, how is it the BSA is to remove reigious foundations but accept the UU's an Wiccan religious Awards? Isn't that a catch-22.

 

No, any government agency has to treat all religions equally. That means if catholics can have BSA recognized religious awards, UUs get to, also. Atheists too, for that matter.

 

Unitarians and Wiccans are not barred from membership as individuals as long as they accept and meet the membership requirements. Most Unitarians are not Athiestic and there are Wicca's who do meet the BSA membership requirements for religious obligation.

 

A BSA unit chartered by a government agency would be compelled to accept any of them for membership, whether they were atheists or not.

 

The two "organizations" do not qualify as charter organizations or with their religious awards since they both insist on allowing homosexuals as members in thier units, and their religious awards include philosophies not in keeping with those of the Boy Scouts of America and so are not recognized by the BSA.

 

This is why the BSA will have to forgo 10,000 units currently chartered to government agencies; the government can't treat people differently depending on their religious beliefs.

 

Do not be decieved by Merlyn. His goal is not to change Scouting. His goal is to end the program, period.

 

Tell me, do you approve of a public school running a youth group that excludes atheists?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

evmori writes:

merlyn,

Make no difference if they were kicking out gays when you were in Cubs. You said you didn't say the God part thereby making you nothing more than a hypocrite! Plain & simple!

 

Hey ed, I already pointed out that the BSA didn't tell me that atheists couldn't join, and, as a nine-year-old only familiar with two other oaths where "god" was entirely optional, I assumed the cub scout oath was similar, and I omitted it. And nobody said a thing about it.

 

It's the BSA's fault for not informing members of the requirements, and they're STILL doing it, because they know that they'd lose government charters even faster if they were up front about their religious discrimination.

 

If the BSA had made it clear back in the late 1960's that atheists couldn't join, they would have faced a lawsuit over it much sooner than the late 1980's.

[Bob White]

TJ,

This is the kind of hyperbole that fosters misunderstanding of the BSA in and out of scouting.

 

Scouting signals to gay youth who are coming to grips with this fact that they are immoral and unworthy of membership

If their self worth is based on whether or not they are scouts then their personal problems are already beyond those addressed by the scouting movement. If they wanted to be lifeguards they should expect to have to get in the water and swim. If you really want to be a scout then you should really want to accept the rules of scouting.

 

"Scouting would eject a 16-year-old member who works on camp staff and answers honestly to a question posed to him by camp leadership and confirms he is gay (another true story, though the Scout was later reinstated because the leadership violated the "don't ask" practice of the BSA)"

No scouting would not do that, and that is why the youth was reinstated. An individual volunteer made a mistake and the BSA corrected it.

 

"Scouting will eject a member (youth or adult) who publicly disagrees with the BSA Inc. policy (whether they are gay or not)"

No, the BSA could do so, but each case is considered on its own merits. So it is not that they "will" it's more a case of they "could".

 

Scouting will eject long-time leaders who grew up in the organization and have served with astonishing contributions back to Scouting, if it becomes publicly known that they have formed a committed, life-time relationship with another man"

Well sure, they broke the rules. Remember the adage "you can't have your cake and eat it too"? If you want to be a member you have to accept the membership conditions. If the membership rules of the Rotary Club (just as a what if) said you had to attend every meeting without fail and you chose not to attend a meeting, then you accept the chance that your membership might be revoked. Even if you are a past president and 20 year member. The BSA doesn't say anything about altering the rules based on rank or tenure.

 

Scouting will pull the charters of a Cub Scout pack whose parents write a letter to their Council Scout Executive stating their opposition to the policy and their willingness to accept a gay leader if one applies"

The Pack very arrogantly overstepped their authority. They should have stopped at the point that they disagreed and wanted to see the rules changed. It wasn't until they avowed to break the regulations that they lost their charter.

 

You cannot break the rules just because they don't suit you. You can work within the guidelines to change the rules, but until they change you are bound by their governance or accept the consequences.

 

"Scouting (for no reason other than leadership believes gays are immoral) teaches all of its youth members that this is a true statement and it is acceptable to discriminate against gays

Absolute rubbish!!!! Nowhere does the scouting program teach such nonsense to the the membership. Do some individuals or chater organizations? I don't know. But it is not part of the BSA program, and never has been.

 

"Scouting's policy doesn't ban gays, it just forces them to remain closeted or get out, which is not healthy for the individual or the organization."

Well you are half right. As far as whether or not it is healthy for gays, I would not know, nor is it the mission of the BSA to determine that. The BSA supports activities that lead to healthy minds and bodies. If following the BSA regulations prohibits that, then I think BSA would rather you do what's healthiest for you. If that means forfeiting your membership in the BSA for your personal health I think the BSA would be in full support of your decision. Why would anyone risk their personal well being just for membership in a club?

 

 

"Scouting violates its own declaration of religious principles, forcing young members to accept the teachings of one Church over another.

TJ you need to return to scout leader training because this is just out and out wrong. The BSA takes no such stance in any of its activities, training, or methods.

 

You have a skewed perception based on your personal wants, none of which are supported in any way in BSA resources or actions.

 

"BSA Inc. has adopted a policy and is forcing that point of few on every leader, sponsor and parent that supports Scouting, forcing them to choose between their principles and the incredible value of Scouting

For the vast majority of its youth and adult membership their priciples and values of are identical to those of the BSA.

 

Scouting is becoming very stigmatized and jaded in the view of many young parents with kids coming of age, and is becoming positioned as something we're not (a religious, specifically Christian-only, organization)

A personal opinion not based on any actual evidence such as the resources or published positions of the BSA, or any statistics reflecting those conclusions.

 

I am confused by your constant assertions as to your dedication to a program that you have so many misconceptions of.

 

I have a friend of many years in scouting who if he told me he was gay I would not be the least bit surprised.

 

He is an excellent SM and an excellent trainer. I have never asked about his sexual preferences, nor have I asked any adult I have ever met in my entire life.

He knows and he teaches others what the membership rules are. If he were to go public I am confident he would resign from the BSA first. He understands personal choice. He knew the rules going in and he would understand them going out. This is a mature leader, he doesn't expect to get everything just because he wants everything. He sees life a series of choices and for now he has made his.

 

Scouting has made theirs. Just because you want to stay in the BSA does NOT make it your right. You are currently deceiving yourself and scouting. The question is is that an honest and mature choice for either?

 

Bob White

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[littlebillie]

first, a wee bit of housekeeping - I think "hypocrite" would apply to Merlin if he HAD included God... see, THEN he would have professed something he didn't believe in.

 

Merlyn, I checked out that site, and - you're right - it's anecdotal and represents a single arbitrary decision on the part of someone who doesn't have a problem in making up awards, either. I'd really like to see a more in-your-face example - a la Lambert - where the nat'l org would pretty much have to comment. Again, the organization lets you certify yourself 'spiritual' - I am interested in a real test of that vs atheism at a media spotlight level. I still think the GSUSA has never been tested to that degree, and I'd be really fascinated by how they spin it. What would be your take on the situation athttp://www.diversityingirlscouts.org/ if the waiting game fails, it goes to court and the GSUSA wins?

[Bob White]

Sorry to post so soon again but Merlyn asked a direct question of me I would like to resond to.

 

"Tell me, do you approve of a public school running a youth group that excludes atheists?"

 

I believe in the American judicial system. I believe that public Schools should do what is legal and within their authority. If a local comunity should pass a law making it illegal for public schools to charter a scout unit then I would expect them to comply with that law. That however does not give them autority to change the scouting program, it gives them the choice to not have one, a choice they had even before the law existed.

 

Another totally innacurate statement you made was "No, any government agency has to treat all religions equally. That means if catholics can have BSA recognized religious awards, UUs get to, also. Atheists too, for that matter.

 

At no time has the BSA said that these groups cannot have a religious award. The BSA has no authority over any religion, its recognitions or requirements.

 

The BSA has said that the awrd is not approved for wear on the BSA Uniform. The government has no authority over the BSA uniform it's use or display. It is owned and regulated by the BSA. There are a number of awards not approved for wear on the uniform.

 

I continue to wonder what your prpose is by posting on this board. If you wanted retail stores to quit selling hamburgers would you get on a Mcdonalds board and protest the ingredients of a Big Mac? For what possible purpose?

 

I would hope you would find a board directed at retail outlests and complain to them.

 

If your problem is that you don't want the governemnt to support groups that discriminate against Atheists, why aren't you spending time telling the government. I appreciate the and accept any organization that shares the same values of of the scouting program and wants to use it to benefit youth. I have enough confidence in what we do as Scout volunteers and in the program we represent that if any Charter orgnization decided to drop scouting I know it would have little effect over the ability of the program to survive.

 

But I resent the implication that we can be forced to change our values through financial coersion as you suggest.

 

"This is why the BSA will have to forgo 10,000 units currently chartered to government agencies; the government can't treat people differently depending on their religious beliefs."

 

A total wish on your part and not required by any court decision or federal law to date.

 

Bob White

[evmori]

littlebillie,

No he is a hypocrite because he belonged to an organization that required him to say an oath. Not just the part he wanted to say, the whole thing. And merlyn chose not to yet he stayed in the organization & benefited from it. To me that is a hypocrite.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

bob white writes:

Sorry to post so soon again but Merlyn asked a direct question of me I would like to resond to.

 

"Tell me, do you approve of a public school running a youth group that excludes atheists?"

 

I believe in the American judicial system. I believe that public Schools should do what is legal and within their authority. If a local comunity should pass a law making it illegal for public schools to charter a scout unit then I would expect them to comply with that law. That however does not give them autority to change the scouting program, it gives them the choice to not have one, a choice they had even before the law existed.

 

Well, you don't seem to understand the first amendment, then. No government agency can run a "no atheists" youth group, just like a public school couldn't run a "no catholics" youth group by having membership go through a private organization that excludes all catholics.

 

...

If your problem is that you don't want the governemnt to support groups that discriminate against Atheists, why aren't you spending time telling the government.

 

I am; why do you think I'm not?

 

...

 

But I resent the implication that we can be forced to change our values through financial coersion as you suggest.

 

Where am I suggesting that? I'm working to get rid of all government BSA charters.

 

...

 

"This is why the BSA will have to forgo 10,000 units currently chartered to government agencies; the government can't treat people differently depending on their religious beliefs."

 

A total wish on your part and not required by any court decision or federal law to date.

 

No government agency has successfully continued a challenged BSA program that discriminates against atheists:

 

Rick Sherman being denied entry into the Buffalo Grove Police Explorers resulted in the PD dropping Explorers.

 

Chicago dropped all 28 BSA charters it held and agreed to not charter any more as long as the BSA discriminates, after the ACLU sued them. That same ACLU is now working on removing all HUD grants and DoD charters.

 

The 19th circuit court dropped troop 19 after pressure from the ACLU.

 

The only court reference I know about is the New Jersey Dale decision, which noted that even if the BSA could legally discriminate, the 750 or so New Jersey government agencies that chartered BSA units were still subject to the NJ law against discrimination, and would still be subject to it. And the supreme court didn't change this part of the decision.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

littlebillie writes:

Merlyn, I checked out that site, and - you're right - it's anecdotal and represents a single arbitrary decision on the part of someone who doesn't have a problem in making up awards, either. I'd really like to see a more in-your-face example - a la Lambert - where the nat'l org would pretty much have to comment. Again, the organization lets you certify yourself 'spiritual' - I am interested in a real test of that vs atheism at a media spotlight level. I still think the GSUSA has never been tested to that degree, and I'd be really fascinated by how they spin it. What would be your take on the situation athttp://www.diversityingirlscouts.org/ if the waiting game fails, it goes to court and the GSUSA wins?

 

As I said, the GSUSA doesn't have the government violating the civil rights of atheists, like the BSA does; if the GSUSA successfully argues that it's a private organization that doesn't have to follow the ADA, they'll probably lose a great deal of public support, and they should. I don't see them gaining anything by winning such a lawsuit, and, of course, they'd start losing government support, too, and I'd help in that.

[scoutldr]

Rooster said, "If a man is willing to debase himself, despite Gods precepts and natures roar which scream its perversity, just so he can obtain physical gratification, then yes - I consider him a potential threat to my child."

 

I guess smokers are out too? 'Bout time!!!

 

 

[Bob White]

A total wish on your part and not required by any court decision or federal law to date.

 

The fact remains. Although scouting has voluntarily rescinded charters from a few public COs who decided they could not accept the membership regulations (by the way in most cases those organizations signed Learning for Life/ exploring charters) There has yet to be a court decision or federal law banning scouting from being used by public or governemental COs.

 

Scouting supports an organization's right to choose to not use the scouting program. They do not support the organizations authority to change the scouting program.

 

Bob White