The local option on gay membership in BSA

[littlebillie]

"How can one embrace Judaism, Christianity, and Wicca simultaneously?"

 

One PERSON would have a hard time; a non-demoninational but nevertheless faithbased GROUP - like the Scouts - should be able to embrace members who in turn embrace different faiths. Heck, that most recent atheist Eagle kid was asked if he couldn't even just profess a belief in Nature - which was probably good news for both Druids and Pagans!

[tjhammer]

BobWhite, alas, it is the 2 : to declare openly, bluntly, and without shame part of the definition that I do not meet. As I have said, I don't feel very courageous by posting anonymously, and I wrestle with the shame not of my sexuality, but of my lack of Bravery. But as I have said before, it was not my intent to "come out" to anyone my revealing this bit of information about myself on the board, and I believe the "cause" is still better served with me working through anonymity for now... that may someday change.

 

The only reason I "declared" anything was so that those anonymous pseudonyms with whom my own anonymous pseudonym has communicated and debated for over a year would have a bit more of a picture of who I am, merely for the purpose of more honest debate. As I have said on prior occasions, my own sexuality is but a small part of my identity (a personal statement) and no real part of my identity as a Scouter, and my passion for this issue has little to do with my own "persecution" (of which there is none really) and everything to do with the very real damage I have seen the policy wreak on those close to me, and can only imagine the ripple of similar effect throughout the rest of the country.

 

Nonetheless, I remain... unavowed, and not particularly proud because of it.(This message has been edited by tjhammer)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

evmori writes:

Merlyn,

An atheist Cub Scout? WOW! And you question our morals & values yet you lived a lie as a youth! Those who throw stones shouldn't live in glass houses.

 

No, this was in the 1960's, long before the BSA kicked out atheists (I think the first such incident was Paul Trout in 1985, who was reinstated). I was about nine years old, and at that time, the only other oath I was familiar with was the pledge of allegiance and for President of the United States, and I knew that "god" in these oaths was completely optional, so I omitted "god" when I joined the cub scouts. Either no one noticed (there were about five of us reciting en masse), or no one cared. The BSA certainly didn't make it clear at that time that atheists couldn't join, as my mother was also a den mother, and she was also an atheist.

 

So no, I wasn't living a lie, as the BSA never informed me that atheists weren't allowed. The BSA is lying nowadays when it advertises that "any boy may join", when this clearly is false; I suggest you urge the BSA to be honest and stop using that phrase in what it now hands out to first-graders, as it gives atheist boys the false impression that atheists are allowed.

 

OGE writes re: the Alton grant:

Again, what happened to the money? Did it end up helping Alton's youth?

 

I mentioned it went to Learning for Life, which was a decision by the Alton city council. They can allocate it to any organization that meets the HUD requirements.

[littlebillie]

fboisseau,

 

first, you tell me what my position is. when i clarify that, you then tie me to somebody else's position. I'm not sure I recognize that style of debate or argument. Can you let me know if you're talking about ME, or some group to which I do not belong? I'm getting confused.

 

About me, you need to know that I was an Eagle Scout when I participated at THAT level, that I have been Pack Leader and that I am currently an Assistant Troop Leader. My opinions are not shared with the boys, but I do write letters to Texas, and I have a set of core beliefs to which I hold true.

 

And on the other hand, my son's original Cub Scout Pack was abandoned by its CO as a result of the SCOTUS decision - and I have been fighting ever since to get Scouts back on that campus.

 

I sincerely believe that Scouting is a darned fine program - AND I believe that some of its policies should be changed. REGARDLESS of what other groups are doing or saying, I want to see Scouting continue and flourish - AND open up a bit more.

 

What, I should deny my son all the well-know, obvious benefits because I have an outlook that Executive doesn't share? Sorry - not gonna happen.

 

And should I keep myself totally quiet about a matter of conscience? Also not gonna happen.

 

And regardless of what I-me-myself does, don't you dare include me in the ranks of those who would destroy Scouting - I've gone through a lot of effort and grief trying to get Cubs back at a UC school - which, frankly, seems like another hopeless cause - but it's also one I won't give up.

 

So "why should those who agree with you attack the BSA for their opinion"? I don't know - maybe you better ask them.

 

And if you want to ask me about me - don't then drag others into the picture. And if you're gonna talk about the destroyers, don't compare me to them.

 

And realize that the original positions statements from the 70's were unilateral, arbitrary instruments issued without the solicitation of member input. Not saying that's wrong in and of itself, but anything like that certainly bears scrutiny. For those who say, where does opening the doors STOP, well - I gotta ask, where does CLOSING the doors stop?

 

"When they came for me..."

 

 

 

 

[Rooster7]

TJ,

 

Being a gay man is not an immoral decision... I believe this to be true, and several churches and many "good and decent" members of Scouting believe the same.

 

I can find several churches to support almost any sin. Its almost fashionable these days. If you define good and decent members as well meaning, I have no problem believing that statement either. But as well meaning as they may be, immoral behavior is not determined by the latest poll. Specific to the BSA, that standard is determined by its professional guardians not well meaning folks whod like to see TJ accepted.

 

As I have said on prior occasions, my own sexuality is but a small part of my identity (a personal statement) and no real part of my identity as a Scouter

 

Most people who embrace habitual sin make these kinds of claims, whether its actually true or not. Alcoholics, drug addicts, gamblers, homosexuals, and other sexual deviates have this much in common. Most addictions, over time, usually degrade to something worse. Regardless, homosexuality by itself, is debasing to oneself and others.

 

I have seen the policy wreak on those close to me, and can only imagine the ripple of similar effect throughout the rest of the country.

 

I am curious as to how, the policy wreak on those close to me.

 

If youre talking about adults who are not allowed to join BSA, then Im sure they are old enough to recognize and deal with this fact - Not everyone can join every club. Its a reality for every person in America and in every other free country where individuals and groups are allowed to associate with whoever they please (if its mutual) and to disassociate with anyone and everyone regardless how those folks feel.

 

If youre talking about adults who have had their BSA membership revoked, then I have to assume that they knew the consequences when they outed themselves. If one decides to be a crusader for a cause, then one better be ready and willing to accept the outcome either way.

 

If youre talking about boys who are not given the stamp of approval from BSA for being gay, then I doubt this has much impact on them either. I assume that these boys do not live in a vacuum and are aware that millions of folks do not approve of homosexuality, not just the BSA.

 

If youre talking about boys who cannot join because they have professed their sexuality, then here too I find it difficult to believe that they have been wreak by it. If theyre old enough to declare their sexuality, then theyre old enough to deal with the ramifications. If they are so young that they cannot handle the ramifications, then theyre too young to be making decisions about their sexual identity especially since its contrary to what is normal and acceptable, and no one should be encouraging them to do so. Although, I think most people recognize the fact that homosexual advocacy groups have been encouraging young men to do just that not because its in the best interest of the boy, but because they figure it will help their cause.

 

If youre talking about boys who are confused about their sexual identity, then again I see no reason for them to be wreak by the policy. The BSA doesnt reject boys who are confused about their sexuality. Furthermore, it is not BSAs job to clear up that confusion Its their parents and churchs responsibility to counsel him in this area.

 

So, TJ, without giving names of course, can you give us any real examplesOr, was this statement I have seen the policy wreak on those close to me - just a bunch of hype.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Well Merlyn, you were right, you did mention what happened to the money and I flat out missed it, although it was plainly stated and in my mothers own words "... if it was a snake, it would have bitten me..."

 

 

[littlebillie]

Merlyn,

 

just out of curiosity, the GSUSA does not, contrary to popular belief, vary so much from the BSA insofar as religion goes. Their website - go to http://www.girlscouts.org/adults/beliefs.html - puts God in the picture, and explains that "The 'motivating force in Girl Scouting' is spiritual. Girl Scouts respects the spiritual values and beliefs of its members, leaving the interpretation of spirituality to each individual and the family."

 

Now, basically, I see this self-interpretation of 'spirituality' as an invitation to the atheist girl simply to lie about being spiritual if she really wants to join up... but maybe I'm just getting cynical in my old age. Or maybe it's all just hypocritical window dressing. oops - darn, cynical again! gotta watch that!

 

Anyway, given its officially stated position, and standing "united by a belief in God", I'm just wondering - do you also address the GSUSA? They spin smarter, maybe, but they don't seem so different..?

 

And if not, what would the BSA have to do, in your view, to step back across that particular line?

 

[Bob White]

TJ

I don't believe you need to satisfy all variations of a single definition for the word to apply, you only need to fulfill one.

 

It is unfortunate as an adult scouter that you would take any action that you were not proud of.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[mk9750]

TJ,

 

Your example of the neighborhood was well thought, and except for one major flaw, I would accept it. But that one flaw is big enough to keep me from seeing your side.

 

In your example, the status quo changed. You certainly would have a responsiblity to defend the status quo. If however, the neighborhood had been established in a manner contrary to your beliefs, should you decide to move in knowing this, you should be bound by their system. In this case, knowing that they do not match your ideals, it would be unwise to move into that neighborhood. If you moved in anyway, you accept the consequences. As far as BSA policy goes, you knew before you requested a leadership position what the rules were. It's a far different issue when viewed from that light.

 

There also is one other difference between the situations that come into play here. One could argue that the neighborhood has no right to discriminate against someone with different beliefs. As a "public" entity, laws do not allow discrimination like you describe. The BSA is a private organization, and they have that right, just like the locker room.

 

I have a question or two for you. I assure you I will not use your answer to continue this debate (although I guess I can't promise on behalf of everyone else). I just want to understand better your situation.

 

Am I right to say that you are not "out" in your community?

 

If your are not "out", is your relationship with the BSA the reason you have not gone public?

 

If it not the only reason, what are the others?

 

Mark

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

littlebillie writes:

Merlyn,

 

just out of curiosity, the GSUSA does not, contrary to popular belief, vary so much from the BSA insofar as religion goes. Their website - go to http://www.girlscouts.org/adults/beliefs.html - puts God in the picture, and explains that "The 'motivating force in Girl Scouting' is spiritual. Girl Scouts respects the spiritual values and beliefs of its members, leaving the interpretation of spirituality to each individual and the family."

 

Now, basically, I see this self-interpretation of 'spirituality' as an invitation to the atheist girl simply to lie about being spiritual if she really wants to join up... but maybe I'm just getting cynical in my old age. Or maybe it's all just hypocritical window dressing. oops - darn, cynical again! gotta watch that!

 

Anyway, given its officially stated position, and standing "united by a belief in God", I'm just wondering - do you also address the GSUSA? They spin smarter, maybe, but they don't seem so different..?

 

There are a few important differences:

 

First, the unit organization is different; GSUSA units aren't chartered to government agencies, and the GSUSA doesn't try to have the government practice religious discrimination on its behalf. The BSA does.

 

Second, the GSUSA explicitly says:

Girl Scouting is a values-based organization, not a religious one. The Girl Scout Promise and Law are its guiding principles.

 

The Girl Scout Promise

 

On my honor, I will try:

To serve God and my country,

To help people at all times,

And to live by the Girl Scout Law.

 

The word "God" can be interpreted in a number of ways, depending on one's spiritual beliefs. When reciting the Girl Scout Promise, it is okay to replace the word "God" with whatever word your spiritual beliefs dictate.

 

The above says it's OK to substitute another word; a completely nonreligious term like "conscience" could be used.

 

Third, when the atheist issue came up for the GSUSA in 1992, they added the above word-substitution option in 1993. I haven't heard of any atheists being kicked out of the girl scouts, unlike the boy scouts.

 

There are some religious discrimination issues in the GSUSA, but since they don't have government agencies violating the first amendment by excluding atheists, I'm concentrating on those who do, like the BSA.

 

And if not, what would the BSA have to do, in your view, to step back across that particular line?

 

As long as the BSA has *any*, and I mean ANY, religious requirements, I'm going to work to remove all government support. This means any required god oaths, any sort of belief requirements, any discrimination against UUs or Wiccans concerning their religious awards, etc.

[evmori]

merlyn,

If you are going after the BSA because of discrimination you better go after ALL groups who discriminate with the same vigor. Just because the GSUSA became a vanilla organization doesn't make it a better one. Your talents & vigor could be well used somewhere else.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[littlebillie]

Merlyn,

 

So the GSUSA can meet at a public school while the BSA cannot? Or is there something about how the GS units are realized that makes the difference? Or...?

 

Additionally, does this mean that an atheist with a conscience is deemed spiritual by the girl scouts? Since this is something I'm interested in at a number of levels for a number of reasons, can you point me to any site that discusses girl scouts that have "come out" religiously - as total atheists, and self-declared as without a spiritual side - and what the national body response has been?

 

Thanks!

[OldGreyEagle]

Rooster,

 

its been a few days and no one has said anything about a part of one of your postings, and I cant let it lie. Exactly what is your opinion of Unitarian?

[tjhammer]

Rooster... in answer to your question about my possible "hype", I'll excerpt from a previous thread I wrote titled "What it is and why it really matters"... I mentioned some of the personal experiences I have had relating to the policy. For the record, I rarely have been one to exaggerate or use hyperbole in this debate... I try to use logic and reason, not passion and presumption (you know I respect you, but you also know that I would put your debate style more toward passion and presumption).Scouting signals to gay youth who are coming to grips with this fact that they are immoral and unworthy of membership, contributing significantly to the crisis in this young person's life that lead to a foolish attempt of self-destruction (I know, I've seen this happen to one of my dearest friends, a young Eagle Scout)

 

Scouting would eject a 16-year-old member who works on camp staff and answers honestly to a question posed to him by camp leadership and confirms he is gay (another true story, though the Scout was later reinstated because the leadership violated the "don't ask" practice of the BSA)

 

Scouting will eject a member (youth or adult) who publicly disagrees with the BSA Inc. policy (whether they are gay or not)

 

Scouting will eject long-time leaders who grew up in the organization and have served with astonishing contributions back to Scouting, if it becomes publicly known that they have formed a committed, life-time relationship with another man (I know, I've seen it happen to one of my closest friends, an Eagle Scout and 10 year leader)

 

Scouting will pull the charters of a Cub Scout pack whose parents write a letter to their Council Scout Executive stating their opposition to the policy and their willingness to accept a gay leader if one applies (yet another true story)

 

Scouting (for no reason other than leadership believes gays are immoral) teaches all of its youth members that this is a true statement and it is acceptable to discriminate against gays

 

Scouting's policy doesn't ban gays, it just forces them to remain closeted or get out, which is not healthy for the individual or the organization.

 

Scouting violates its own declaration of religious principles, forcing young members to accept the teachings of one Church over another.

 

BSA Inc. has adopted a policy and is forcing that point of few on every leader, sponsor and parent that supports Scouting, forcing them to choose between their principles and the incredible value of Scouting

 

Scouting is becoming very stigmatized and jaded in the view of many young parents with kids coming of age, and is becoming positioned as something we're not (a religious, specifically Christian-only, organization)

 

As for your assertions about churches that differ in beliefs from your own... you have made it abundantly clear in this forum that you will "tolerate" people who don't have your strict conservative Christian beliefs, but you don't really respect those beliefs at all. For the record, we're not talking about a bunch of radical small sects that believe differently than you and your church on the morality of homosexuality. Another excerpt from my thread titled Scouting's REAL Gay Policy:I realize the division is not felt equally throughout Scouting - it is felt more in some areas than others. It is obvious to anyone, I believe, that there is no uniform view among religions on the morality of homosexuality.

 

Amicus briefs filed before the Supreme Court by Scouting's chartering religious denominations are revealing.

 

The National Catholic Committee on Scouting, the General Commission on United Methodist Men of the United Methodist Church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, and Agudath Israel of America, were among those who submitted or joined a brief in favor of the BSA policy.

 

Amicus briefs in opposition to the BSA policy were submitted or joined by the General Board of Church and Society of the United Methodist Church, The Episcopal Church, the United Church of Christ, The Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism and the Unitarian Universalist Association. One brief noted that even some individual churches within the Southern Baptist Convention have ordained gay clergy.

 

So really a larger issue that we now face is an inconsistency between this policy and our policy to teach a boy Duty to God. If a boy's religion happens to be one that does not believe homosexuality to be immoral, then we are REQUIRING him to choose between allegiance to the BSA policy and his Duty to God.

[Bob White]

"my son's original Cub Scout Pack was abandoned by its CO as a result of the SCOTUS decision

An interesting choice of words.

 

Consider this, if your son was a member of the youth choir at your church, and for whatever reason the church decided not to have a youth choir, would you say the church no longer has a youth choir or the church abandoned my sons choir?

 

The pack was formed by the Charter Organization before your son was a member. It is their Pack.

They did not abandon your son, they chose to no longer have a scouting program. The only people who abandon scouting are those who believe in scouting but who do not support it verbally, physically or financially.

 

Bob White