R. E. Lee is not PC

[LovetoCamp]

There was no "enemy" in the Civil War. Lee is viewed as a classic gentleman warrior, the underdog who fought with skill and daring and almost pulled it off. The top Union Commanders were not looked on highly as they were replaced one after the other until Grant appeared and drove the Confederates to surrender by his use of overwhelming numbers and his continous attacking.

 

The individual state's had to vote previously to join the United States. The opinion of the southern state's was that they could also vote to leave the U.S. They voted and the majority of citizens of those states voted to leave.

 

Who knows....if Chamberlain wasn't atop Little Round Top, if Picket had tore down those split rail fences the night before, if JEB Stuart was doing his job correctly...

[scoutingagain]

"Who knows....if Chamberlain wasn't atop Little Round Top, if Picket had tore down those split rail fences the night before, if JEB Stuart was doing his job correctly... "

 

TP, Good question.

 

While our Troop was at Gettysburg last summer I found myself wondering some of the same things. In particular, I wondered about what turns history would have taken had the South successfully established a separate state. Would the Confeerates have been satified with a separate state or would they have continued to conquer the North? What would have happened in WWI? Would we in America been able to provide the kind of support needed in Europe just 50 years later? Would Europe have become a German style Soviet Union? Would we be able to defend ourselves on the American Continent from such a powerful aggressor if we were not united?

 

SA

 

[Fat Old Guy]

About 20 years ago, I read a book titled something like "If the South had won the Civil War." Interesting discussion of how life would be different today.

 

 

[LovetoCamp]

WWI, The CSA sends troops to aid the Brits, because they lent a hand during their successful seccession. But the numbers are not enough. The USA stays out of it. They sell arms, but never kick Detroit into high gear. There's too many people of German and Irish ancestory in the North to overcome siding with the French and British.

 

The Czar abdicates in 1917. The Soviets sign the treaty with the Kaiser. German and Austrian forces head for the Western Front. The Americans aren't there in enough numbers to go on the massive offensive again. France, Britain, Germany, and Austria-Hungary sign a treaty in 1920. France loses Alcase and Lorraine. Britain cedes some of their empire in Asia and Africa. There is no WWII. Communism doesn't spread. Baseball is what spreads across the continent. Korea doesn't happen. Vietnam doesn't happen.

 

Adolph Hitler, an unemployed rabble-rouser, mouths off to a couple of Jewish construction workers at the Hofbrau Haus in Munchen and is beaten so bad, he spend the remaining years of his short life in a sanitarium for the infirm right outside of Dachau.

 

Slavery is abolished in the South in 1880. President of the CSA George Pickett stated that the plantation owners could pay a prevailing wage, just like the Yankees do in their factories. 99% of the population who didn't own slaves terminated the peculiar institution and the Farm Workers International Union was formed in Mobile.

[LovetoCamp]

The CSA sent the 29th "Stonewall" Division to France in 1917. They fought gallantly, led by Division Commander, Major General Thomas J. Jackson Jr., they once again proved their mettle under fire as they "held like a stone wall", turning back the German offensive in 1918 as the Canadian lines on their left fell like a house of cards. The Confederate Marine Corps filled the gap in the line, the glistening bayonets followed a banshee like Rebel yell, stopped the Hun in their tracks, and created the term "bug-out" long before 1950. The Confederates still clinging to their agrarian society, unfortunately did not learn all of the lessons of the past. In Flanders Field, their cavalry regiment, including two grandsons of JEB Stuart, sustained over 70% casualties as they charged the Austrian defenses in the world's final horseback cavalry charge. The Maxim machine gun ruled the day.

[NJCubScouter]

TrailPounder, that's very creative, and it's possible that it could have turned out something like that. Of course, a lot of other things are possible, too. Averting Naziism AND the spread of Soviet power are an awful lot to lay on one hypothetical country.

[LovetoCamp]

Joshua Chamberlain is remembered in the North for his heroic defense of Little Round Top, he was felled by a sharpshooters ball moments before Hill's Texans broke their line. With Confederate cannon atop the little rocky hill, the put withering fire onto the angle. George Picket's Virginians, launched their charge a day earlier than planned, spurred on by the taking of Little Round Top and the fire the Texans brought to bare on their objective. The Virginians broke the Union center and turned right rolling up the Union line forcing them to hurry off of Seminary Ridge and off the field.

 

Lincoln's Treaty at Bethesda saw Lee remove his forces out of Pennsylvania and back into Virginia, leaving Washington untouched. Lincoln was not re-elected. He was defeated by George Maclellan, who was previously fired by Lincoln for his cautious generaling. Lincoln returned to Springfield. He started his law practice once again, championing the cause of the slaves still in bondage and the freedmen. He remained a Republic power broker in the Midwest as his Liberal Republican Party took years to recover from the loss of the War of Succession.

 

[scoutingagain]

TP,

 

As NJ says, very creative. I agree that it is likely Germany would have won WWI without a united USA. However, what does a continental superpower Germany do after WWI. Does it threaten USA and CSA interests abroad? Who provides a balance to a growing Soviet threat? Do the USA and CSA align to face a foreign threat from Japan? Do they reconcile and get back together realizing they actually need each other for security or form a North American Treaty Organization? Without WWII is the Nuclear Bomb ever developed? Are either alone, competitive in a growing world economy or does each separate nation become a world economic/military also ran similar to Canada? Does either one become one of the world's dominant superpowers able to influence world affairs? Does one or the other have sufficient military/economic strength to force the Soviet Union to remove missils from Cuba or oust Saddam Hussein from Kuwait? Perhaps with diminished economies, neither needs foreign oil to make the liberation of Kuwait an issue? Do the Atlanta Braves and New York Yankees ever meet in a World Series or are they just perennial champs in their own countries?

 

Just wondering out loud.

 

SA

 

 

[NJCubScouter]

SA,

 

I think it's equally possible that if the "CSA" had entered WWI in recognition of British assistance in the Civil War, they would have done so in 1914, not 1917, and it is possible that they would have been enough to turn the tide against Germany, resulting perhaps in an even worse defeat for Germany than the one that actually happened. From there on, everything happens pretty much the way it actually did happen. I also think TP's theory of the USA not entering the war due to the influence of German and Irish citizens doesn't hold up. The North was still pretty much calling the shots politically by 1914-1917, so if the Germans and Irish were not enough to stop the USA from entering into the war, I doubt that the absence of the Southern states would have made that big a difference. Of course, it is quite possible that President Woodrow Wilson still would have been president, but of the "CSA," since he was a Southerner.

 

On the other hand, TP, I think it is time to return to Planet Earth now. I am beginning to worry that you think these things actually happened.

[NWScouter]

Trailpounder, have you been reading Harry Turtledove? In his alternative history he has a black uprising under the red banner of socialism/ bolshevism and a series of wars between the Confederacy and the Union, with British North America and Mexico involved. Abraham Lincoln comes back to lead the Socialist Party.

Fun reading, but doesn't change history.

 

[LovetoCamp]

No, I've never read Turtledove's book, but I might now, and also book FOGuy mentioned. The Soviet Union doesn't get invaded in 1940. There is no growing Soviet threat, because their collectives never produce at subsistence levels and to create a huge amount of defense (offensive) spending without the threat of total destruction would have bankrupted them 50 years sooner than they actually went under. Without the British colonizing the Middle East after WWI, there would never be a Saddam Hussein. The CSA is independent of the need for Arab oil. They have Texas, Louisiana, The Gulf of Mexico, a great relationship with Mexico, and Argentina. Sounds like a great novel. I'd have FOG, the first customer reviewer on Amazon.Com flaming my grammar, spelling, word useage, you name it, it would cost me thousands, I'd have to pay my advance back.

[LovetoCamp]

Yep, looks like this Turtledove fellow stole my thunder, in many volumes.

 

Oh Well, back to work tomorrow.

[packsaddle]

Before this thread goes into oblivion, one comment continued to nag at me, I think it was made by Scootcraft. The comment was that numerous slaves fought for the Confederacy. I have encountered this puzzlingly inaccurate belief throughout the South and have always wondered if the persons promoting it were really trying to further discredit the South by remaining here. But to address the question the following is helpful:

 

"In January, 1864, General Patrick Cleburne and several other Confederate officers in the Army of the Tennessee proposed using slaves as soldiers since the Union was using black troops. Cleburne recommended offering slaves their freedom if they fought and survived. Confederate President Jefferson Davis refused to consider Cleburne's proposal and forbade further discussion of the idea. The concept, however, did not die. By the fall of 1864, the South was losing more and more ground, and some believed that only by arming the slaves could defeat be averted. On March 13, the Confederate Congress passed General Order 14, and President Davis signed the order into law. The order was issued March 23, 1865, but only a few African American companies were raised, and the war ended before they could be used in battle.

 

In actual numbers, African American soldiers comprised 10% of the entire Union Army. Losses among African Americans were high, and from all reported casualties, approximately one-third of all African Americans enrolled in the military lost their lives during the Civil War."

 

For a good source on the tremendous number of men of color and freed slaves who fought for the Union there is:

http://www.archives.gov/digital_classroom/lessons/blacks_in_civil_war/blacks_in_civil_war.html

 

This memorial day, I will also remember them.

[NWScouter]

Many officers in the CSA had slaves as personal servents. Many of these slaves had grown up with the officers and through devotion to them may have help defend their master. They may have fought but were never an official part of the CSA Army. There also may have been instances of slaves defending their masters plantations. There were labor battalions building fortification that were made up by slaves, but they were either press ganged or hired out by their masters. This may be what they are reffering to but none of it is freely serving in the army as there was in the Union Army. And before before anybody says anything about the labor battlions that the North had, most of the ex-slaves served in those more willingly for food, shelter and protection.

[packsaddle]

I find it interesting that THAT other thread about McCain's VP selection degenerated into a re-fight of the civil war and ESPECIALLY that self-described history buffs who hijacked it have not done the research to take their arguments to the old threads that have already covered much of this ground.

I am reminded of Santayana, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." And in this case it's the history buffs who are not remembering the past...another one of those delicious ironies.

Just for fun, I'll also resurrect another old thread where this issue was discussed yet again.