Here we go again....

[evmori]

Bob,

No advocate this time. I had a Scout tell me something during a SM conference and after we were finished, he asked I not tell his dad (single parent). I didn't. When his dad asked how it went (he is an ASM in my Troop) I told him it went well. I never revealed what his son didn't want me to reveal. It was nothing illegal or morally wrong. I feel I was living up to the Trustworthy point of the Scout law. Setting the example so to speak.

 

Also, Bob, do assume everything I post as playing devil's advocate just because you don't agree. It is getting a little annoying.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

 

[Bob White]

Sorry Ed, But it is difficult to tell when you are pulling our leg and when you are serious.

 

How about your responsibility to be trustworthy to the adult guardian of that child. They have as much if not more reason to expect you to be trustworthy to them. They trust you to help teach their son, they have a reasonable expectation that you will not be keeping secrets from them.

 

Again, a child who wants to share something with you that you cannot share with parents is taking advanctage of you. Hiding things from his parents is not trustworthy on his part.

 

I would agree there are some things that might seem big to a child that we evaluate as small. As an example.A scout tells you he has a crush on a girl at school and asks you not to tell his parents because he is a little embarrased (actually happened). I would not volunteer the info to the parents, but if they asked me directly about it I would have told them what I knew. The scout needs to know that we reserve the right to evaluate the information and do what we feel is in their best interest.

 

We should not be keeping secrets from parents or teaching children that it is appropriate to keep secrets from parents. That is a tool often employed by child abusers and should not be used in scouting by anyone, youth or adult. (see the YP video training).

[evmori]

Bob,

OK advocate time. You just had a SM conference with a Scout & he told you during the conference he knew there was a higher being but was unsure of his belief in God. You talked about it and after the conference was finished, this Scout requested you not tell his parents about the God thing. What would you do?

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

He believes in a higher being but is not sure about God? What does he call this higher being?

 

How does he show the required reverence and service to this higher being?

 

Why did you not mention that this is a good subject to discuss with his parents because they have a deeper background in their religion and the role it plays in bringing up their children?

 

Why did you not explain to the child that it is irresponsible of you to hide things from the parents? Why if his beliefs are not harmful to the scout or a violation of the scouting principles did you not say that ther was nothing in what he said that needed to be hidden?

 

What if the scouts first two answers put him in conflict with the principles of scouting and affected his membership? How would you have kept your promise not to tell the parents?

 

It is irresponsible of Scouting volunteers to keep secrets from the parents of the scouts. If you feel this is something you must do then become a Priest, Minister, Rabbi, or physician. They at least have a code that requires confidentiality. No such code of behavior exists in scouting. No training you have ever recieved and no BSA materials have instructed you to keep secrets from parents and legal guardiaans. This is a dangerous practice and a bad example to set for the children.

 

You need to seriously reconsider this behavior.

 

Bob White

[Eagledad]

Hi All

 

There is another part of this that needs to be looked at. The adult has to be seen as the person of wisdom. Wisdom being lifes experiences. I know from experience that boys will have a higher respect for that wisdom when they know its limits. One of the limits is no secrets from the parents. I don't even feel it's a "don't ask don't tell" type thing, it's a moral relationship. A policy of no secrets actually takes away barriers and opens up the SM and scout relationship. While many here think scouts will view this as the adult telling on the scout, I found the boys viewed the relationship as another valued resource for advice and guidance. It is the one part of Baden Powells description of a SM he describes as a big brother. A big brother would not hold important information from the parents. The wise SM would not hold back a secret from parents that he views harmful to the son because that would violate the relationship of the family. Scouts won't run from this, they are attracted to it because they can count on it and it is noble.

 

Now for the liability side, I just watched a close friend have to defend himself from a parent who wanted to know why she was not informed about her sons bad behavior on a campout. The friend knew better but wanted the trust of the boy. However, he lost the trust of the parent.

 

Sure things come up that is hard for the parent/child relationship, but that is not for us to judge. The police and DHS have called me about scouts in my troop, but even that has its protocols. Also, I always conferred with other trusted adults on most boy matters because sometimes my guidance could be wrong and I wanted another opinion.

 

 

Barry

 

[evmori]

Bob,

What does he call this higher being? Don't know that I care. He shows his reverence by attending church every Sunday. The reason he didn't want his parents to know is he didn't want to them to beat his ear. If his 1st two answers put him in conflict with Scouting principals, then I would have told the parents he participated in a SM conference but I couldn't recommend him for a BOR due to something he revealed during the SM conference. I would not say what.

 

I feel if a Scout or anyone for that fact tells me something in confidence that isn't illegal or must be reported (like child abuse) then if I tell the person(s) I was not to tell I would violate that confidence therefore not being trustworthy. And to me, my word is far more important that a rule.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

Ed,

I am so glad you prefaced this with playing devils advocate. Because to do as you suggest in this hypothetical scenario is way out of line and irresponsible as a scout leader.

 

You say hes not sure of his belief in God, but he shows his reverence by attending church every Sunday. His Reverence to who Ed? Who is he revering at that church if he is not sure about God? We cant just talk to the scouts Ed, you have to listen as well. If I was the parent and you told me that my son told you something that you refused to share with me you would be in deep trouble.

 

Who do you think our obligation is to as leaders? I registered my son in scouting. I the parent, gave you the opportunity to help teach my son. That does not give you the right to withhold information from me. If you gave your word to a minor that you would keep secrets from his parents, then you made a very, very, bad decision.

 

We are supposed to be a role model and what you are telling them is that they can be more open with you than with a parent. Do you really think that is the example scouting is asking you to set? Do you really think you care more for them or have more rights than the parent does?

 

You are impressed because the scout can tell you things and not worry about you talking his ear off. In other words he can talk to you knowing you wont do anything about it. Should that be a comforting thought to either of you?

 

You are not violating any confidence because as a scout leader you are not asked, expected or trained to keep things confident from the parents.

 

You by the way authorized his membership in the BSA. If his beliefs are in conflict with the rules of membership you have more responsibilities as a scout leader than just keep him from a BOR.

 

Aside from the misuse of A scout is Trustworthy what element of scouting supports keeping secrets from parents?

 

Bob White

 

[Eagledad]

>>I would violate that confidence therefore not being trustworthy. And to me, my word is far more important that a rule.

[fotoscout]

Time out here folks,

 

When a child comes to a teacher, scout leader , friend of family, or clergyman with a profound thought, comment or yes maybe a revelation, its not the time to play Scouts. The character traits that we teach our children should be your guide, not the tenets of scouting.

 

You are privileged to be in a position that allows a troubled youth to come to you with a very personal situation. Regardless of the boys tone, he is most likely SCREAMING at you for help. The manner in which you choose to help him, may have an even greater impact on his young life than does his personal situation.

 

Im troubled by the comments made here about trustworthiness, vs, disclosure to the parents, vs, directing the boy to the appropriate professional. Ones personal concept of Trustworthiness should not enter into this thought process. You do whats right for the child, regardless of the hits you personally take.

 

[Zahnada]

I don't know which side I'm on with this issue, so I'll play a little bit of Devil's advocate.

 

What do you say when a boy comes up to you and says, "I have something very important to tell you. Promise not to tell my parents."?

 

This is very tricky. Most times, it will be something small. But the boy obviously feels he cannot turn to his parents at this moment. It is a cry for help. But should we grant that help at the expense of the parents? This is tough.

 

How do you handle that situation?

[Bob White]

Sorry fotoscout, but no one is denying the importance of doing what is right for the boy. The question is the decsision process of what 'right" is. To let a boy think that keeping secrets from his parents is "right", is not in the best interest of the boy.

 

This is one of two things.

1) A scoutleader making an error in judgement.

2) a scoutleader inflating the importance of his role in the boy's life, and in the function of the boy's family.

 

I don't know any reasonable adult who considers one of their roles in life is to be a confidential confessor to any youth that wants to use them in that way.

 

In addition, no matter how you cut it, as a volunteer in the BSA you have a responsibility to the organization and its rules. One of the basics of Youth Protection is 'there are no secrets'.

 

A scout should be able to respect their scout leaders. The should want to follow their examples. This is not an example that we should teach to children.

 

Eagle Dad

I agree with what you wrote except one thing. I am responding to Ed's scenario not just as a volunteer trainer, but as an experienced unit leader and a parent. As a trainer I know that what Ed suggests is incorrect. As a scout leader I know it is not necessary to do in order to serve the scout's best interest. As a parent I am appalled that someone I expect to help teach my son 'character' would include witholding information from parents as a character trait. What right does the SM have to contradict what I teach my son about always be able to talk openly with his parents.

 

Zahnada

 

You say "I cannot promise you that." "I can promise that I will do whatever I can to help you, and if that includes talking to your parents, then I will help you to do that as well. But I cannot promise to keep secrets from your parents. If there is something troubling you, I'm sure they woulfd want to help. Now what seems to be the problem?"

 

Bob White

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Eagledad]

>>Time out here folks

[fotoscout]

Bob,

 

There was a portion of my posting that commented on overzealous leaders, I chose to delete it. You are correct in the thought that in these situations there is potential for over inflated leaders to get out of control.

 

However, in the initial stages of a life crisis, our job is not to immediately get off the chair and drive over to the parents home and spill our guts about a very profound issue that is troubling their son. Nor are we trained to facilitate the initial post revelation conversation (confrontation) between the parent and child. There is no black and white here, much will depend on how well we know the boy and how well we know the parents. Its called decision making, and its the burden of everyone that chooses to lead.

 

Bear in mind here that we are in the context of a major life crisis, abuse, suicide, sexual identity, and religious identity issues. The boy apparently does not have enough confidence in his parents to securely go to them. He does have that confidence in you, his scout leader, his friend, his father figure. Involving his parents immediately may well be the right thing to do, but it also may not be the right thing to do. We all have many professionals available to us.

 

With the right help, he will eventually learn the lesson about secrets. But its myopic to think that at this time in the boys life, that that lesson is important.

 

Always remember that not every home is like yours or mine. As someone else noted in this thread, I hope that Im never thrust into this type of situation.

 

 

[saltheart]

Just some food for thought, (interjecting himself warily into the discussion...)

 

As a Scout Leader I always made it my business to bring the Scouts to the understanding that I was their Scoutmaster, a mentor, a guide, (hopefully) a good example to follow, and perhaps a friend. But I also did my best to include in that understanding that I was not their "best friend" as one of their peers might be. I was still an adult. Still (usually) a member of the their parents generation. Responsible for their care while with me, but ultimately responsible to their parents as to things that transpired within the troop while they were there...the good, the bad, and the questionable. I never defined for them where the line was that, once crossed, would obligate me to talking to Mom & Dad, as I knew I must, as these boys were not my sons, and I could not, under any circumstances, name myself to the rank of parent. The boys understood this, and the conversations we had were always with that understanding.

 

What I found in my years was that, if anything, it helped to get the boys to "think" when talking to adults in the troop. And I don't think it ever kept the boys from discussing issues that they might not feel comfortable talking to their parents about at the outset. It may have been that they used me (and the other adult leaders) as sounding boards prior to taking the discussion home...as was always encouraged by us because with important issues, Mom & Dad needed to play their part. Our part, my part, was more akin to facilitator in bringing the boy to the point where he knew he must travel that path.

 

A key element for me in this was the realization that setting the example included, in part, showing my charges that making tough decisions that might involve some personal pain and anguish between the start and the resolution of discussing issues with parents. I believed then, as I do now, that boys and girls, and even adults who have not yet learned, can become stronger and more confident when facing their issues head on with the confidence that the road they travel, no matter how bumpy, is that which they must pass.

[fotoscout]

Bob,

 

In the YP training that I took there was a common thread that said, report it to the Scout Executive or in his absence the local authorities. Whether we were talking about a predatory situation or a revelation made by a scout, the instruction was clear, we are to have a trained professional handle it. Nowhere did it say, "run to the phone and inform the parents". This will in turn happen, but not until after the boy is safeguarded. Dont misinterpret, if the boy or girl is injured as the result of an attack I would be the first one to phone. But that's not the situation we are talking about here.

 

 

I dont know what video you watched, but in this venue there certainly are secrets to be kept. Kept from the other scouts, and kept from the other leaders. For the protection for the children involve this is strictly, Need to Know territory. The Need to Know can only be breached if the safety of the other children is at risk.