Here we go again....

[dsteele]

I forgot one thing. I don't know if the original source is Chief Scout Executive Roy Williams, but I heard him say it and I'll attribute it to him. It rang in my ears and continues to resonate for me . . .

 

"Adversity doesn't build character. It reveals it."

 

Roy Williams, Chief Scout Executive to an audience of Scout Executive and other top professionals -- Top Hands, August 2001.

 

I liked the quote.

 

DS(This message has been edited by dsteele)

[Zahnada]

Bob, Bob, Bob...

 

No, I'm afraid I do not have a magic pair of glasses that I can don that allow me to see everybody's pain. And I also do not have a guide that tells me the proper course of action for every situation.

 

HOWEVER I have a good idea when someone's in a difficult situation. And sometime's it is very obvious when a teenage boy needs help. The issue we're dealing with is if a boy's sexuality prevents him from being a scout. In such a case then I know it was not me who brought up sexuality (so you don't have to worry about my removal from BSA).

 

And once again, I feel it is no great liability to offer my support to a child who will face a difficult life. It is no great liability to say, "There are places you can go if you need more help. There are places you can go that deliver a similar program to scouting." I would never say, "Get out. And I can't talk to you anymore because I might get sued or removed from scouting."

 

And so no, I am not an expert on the suffering of homosexuals. But as a human, I want to help those who might need and want it. If it becomes apparent to me that a boy may need my aid, I will do what I can. It may not be much, but I will try. To remove a boy from an organization he loves for a reason that already adds stress to his life will probably be hard on him. It will be a tough transition. I want to help him.

 

Well Bob, I can see we're deadlocked on this issue. I detected quite a bit of sarcasm in your last post and I don't care for conversations to go that route. Therefore, I propose we end it here and leave some webspace open for scouter.com.

[Bob White]

One last question if you don't mind Zahnada. You say there is somewhere else this scout can go and get a similar program. Where exactly is that?

 

Bob White

[tjhammer]

That's an excellent question BobWhite. I think we may all agree on the true answer.

 

 

[Zahnada]

Bob,

 

Unfortunately no program is a replacement for Boy Scouts. That is why it saddens me when boys cannot or do not take advantage of all that BSA has to offer. Boy Scouts has the whole package.

 

However, there are other organizations that have some similarities to scouting. Mostly it is local. I suggest you look into some of the youth programs in your area. It will help you understand what I am talking about and it will provide valuable resources for your troop.

 

If the boy enjoys camping, there are several outdoor organizations in my area. Some specialize in backpacking, some in rock climbing, some in aquatics, etc. The specialization of the groups can be a plus and a minus because it's not very broad, but it's very deep.

 

If the boy enjoys community service he can find any number of groups that work in that field. He could volunteer for the local park service or at libraries or at the hospitals. Community service is no problem.

 

If the boy wants more of a moral guidance program then he can consult his church youth group. Naturally the homosexual issue comes into play here too, but some churches are very accepting.

 

Leadership is the one area where most programs fall far short of BSA. However, all the groups I described have some opportunity to advance and lead others. It just isn't a focus like it is in scouting and that is too bad.

 

I haven't even mentioned rec league sports teams, school leadership councils, and other school activities. Depending on the boy's interest, there are several directions to point him towards if he must leave scouting. It is always a good idea to remind him that life always has options (and say that old quote about windows and doors).

 

Naturally to answer your question I haven't mentioned the counselling of psychological difficulties that come with "coming out of the closet." I hope you don't mind, but it wasn't relevant to your question.

 

In any case, I advise you and other members of this forum to research and know what groups exist in your communities. While I love Boy Scouting and feel it is the best organization for boys, I realize that other options exist. It may be advantageous to know about these groups because (as I mentioned) they may become powerful resources for your own troop and program. I hope this answers your question, Bob.

[Bob White]

I think we agree Zahnada, that although there are groups with some similarities to scouting there is nothing else like scouting aavailable to youth.

 

Where we differ is at what point that uniqueness begins. We both see some organizations that use some of the tools of scouting; camping, outdoor activities adventure, service, and other "tools" that the BSA uses. Where I think we part is that you see the leadership opportunities as what makes scouting different and I know that youth leadership is just another tool like camping, service, advancement, etc.

 

Where I think the uniqueness of scouting comes from is in our ethics driven mission. The "Why we do" of scouting. It is that mission that makes parents want their kids to be scouts. That same mission is what defines the membership of the BSA. It is the adherence to that mission that drives our membership rules. To change our membership would require us to change the mission (which by the way is exactly what the goal is of certain political groups. They want us to give approval to their lifestyle through membership in scouting).

 

Change the mission and you remove what makes the Boy Scouts of America the most successful youth organization in the country. Without the mission of the BSA we would be just another outdoor club. It's not what we do that brings millions of scouts through the program, It's what we stand for.

 

I believe it was Bill Hillcourt who said

"Scouting is for all boys, but not all boys are for scouting."

 

Something to think about,

Bob White

 

 

[Zahnada]

Bob,

 

Very well worded post. I apologize if I confused you with my beliefs about the importance of leadership in scouting. I see leadership as the "tool" that scouting offers and that no other group can really match.

 

Your statement about the "mission" of scouting is well taken. As well as the connection between the mission and membership. However, that is not the point we have been debating. This has not been a discussion about whether gays should or should not be allowed in scouting.

 

How we carry out that mission is more important than the fact that it exists. What is the mission? You say, "Where I think the uniqueness of scouting comes from is in our ethics driven mission. The "Why we do" of scouting." It is unethical to cast a gay boy to the wolves without helping him. It is unethical to not help your fellowman. This is where we disagree. Those ethical lessons we teach our youth include "A scout is helpful".

 

For you to deem a boy unworthy of aid because he is gay does not fulfill the mission of scouting. This is moral exclusion. I hope the boys in scouting learn that there is only one judge and we are not Him. I hope scouts learn that it is ethical to help a person who needs it.

 

This is how I interpret the "mission" of scouting.

[tjhammer]

BobWhite --- I assure you, Bill Hillcourt NEVER said anything of the sort... I defy you to back that claim up.

 

Hillcourt often said that Scouting was out of step from the "norm", but he never suggested that kids were disposable or beyond our reach.

 

You should retract that statement immediately, for it is ridiculously attributed.

[Joni4TA]

Just a question.... who ever said a homosexual needs "help" with anything? Homosexuality isn't a "treatable disease" for crying out loud, it's a lifestyle. And so is Scouting a lifestyle. I find it hard to believe that any Boy Scout is going to turn to a Scouter and ask for a counseling referral becausae he thinks he's gay. And I am sorry but Bob White is absolutely correct when he basically says, "Not our job!" We aren't trained to handle that kind of thing. It's our responsibility to look after the Scouts in our care, but not to direct them to a lifestyle clinic!

[Joni4TA]

ANd here's what's worse than this simple topic forum:

http://www.scoutingforall.org/aaic/wycd1.shtml

Scouting For All's National Campaign

 

These people are throwing protest signs in the hands of Cub Scouts that aren't even old enough to understand what "GAY" means and marching down streets in national localities talking about how the BSA are biggots! If you ask me, they are doing more harm to the scouts than the heterosexual leaders they claim are the ones that discriminate!

 

[Zahnada]

Joni4TA,

 

You addressed the issue I was concerned about with my posts. I was worried that my arguments may be read as equating homosexuality to a disease. I really did not want to give the impression that I see gays as wearing a huge "HELP ME!!" sign and that I would be their savior. I don't believe that homosexuality is a disease. And I don't believe that people need to rush in and involve themselves in other people's lives and personal problems all the time.

 

However, as adults that deal with youth, we need to recognize that homosexuality can have some consequences for the boy. Many go through a period where they come to terms with their sexuality. They also realize that a good portion of society does not accept who they are and will judge them negatively based on that. For a respectable organization like BSA to turn them away can be very difficult. This can lead to feelings of alienation, isolation, depression and perhaps suicide.

 

Naturally, we don't want any human to experience such feelings. As scout leaders, we need to know that this situation may be troublesome for a youth.

 

I don't buy into the argument that "It's not our job!" It's our job to be vigilant to the needs and attitudes of the youth in our program. It's also our job to help others. If I found out that any scout was feeling depressed, I'd try to make sure he got the help he needed.

 

Sorry for the confusion.

[dsteele]

In nearly 15 years of professional service with the Boy Scouts of America I have never seen nor heard of a young man being kicked out because of doubts about his sexuality. I've also never seen nor heard of an openly gay youth member being turned away by a troop. That doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but if it had occurred in my service area at any time, it certainly should have made my attention.

 

The much debated policy of no homosexuals in the Boy Scouts of America relates to leaders. Not those under the age of 18. If a Cub Scout tells me he's gay, will I advocate his removal from the Boy Scouts of America? I don't think so. He still probably thinks girls have coodies! Do I think he needs help? Yes! He needs to know that girls don't have coodies! (Okay, so I had to make a little light there.)

 

Now, let me say that I have had to deal with two instances of youth abusing youth in a sexual manner. However, I separate these from the homosexual issue. These abuses were about power. In both cases, the matter was turned over to the police. Counseling was provided to the troop. These had nothing to do with boys questioning their sexuality. There were crimes committed.

 

DS

[Bob White]

With all due respect to you as a professional dsteele. I believe you are incorrect on your statement regarding that the membership rule on avowed homosexuals is only for the adult leaders. Except where age and gender are concerned the BSA has the same membership requirements for youth and adults.

 

The difference is with the youth the BSA will first suggest thet the scout seek counceling to determine if his decision is being made maturely. If the scout feels it is then the the same membership rules apply. You can find this information on the BSA natioanl web site in their fact sheets.

 

In part it reads, The Boy Scouts of America makes no effort to discover the sexual orientation of any member or leader. Scouting's message is compromised when members or leaders present themselves as role models whose actions are inconsistent with the standards set in the Scout Oath and Law.

 

Rarely, if ever, has a boy expressed opposition to any of the values of the Scout Oath and Law. In the event that were to happen, we would encourage the boy to seek counsel from his parents or religious leaders to make sure that his expression was the product of a mature decision.

 

But I really wasn't looking to get into the specific discussion on homosexuality. I was merely addressing the the open door policy that Zahnada did not want to see "anybody" turned away. From both a moral and a legal responsibility as a leader I can think of many people we want to turn away. Not just for the safety of the scouts but for the negative role models they could be exposed to.

 

Bob

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[dsteele]

Bob, I don't think we were disagreeing with each other. After reading your latest post, I still don't find anything to disagree with. Admittedly homosexual leaders are given the "membership in the Boy Scouts of America is a privelidge" letter and are out. They can appeal, but until someone reverses the decision, they're done as registered leaders.

 

When it comes to youth, as your post says, we recommend they seek the counsel of others to make sure they're making a mature decision.

 

I wasn't looking to get into a discussion of homosexuality. It's non-productive. The BSA has made it's stand and I am in no position to change it. Nor do I care to change it.

 

I further agree scouting is not for everyone. There is a reason we're a private organization. (Now I'm preaching to the masses, Bob and not to you directly. You know this stuff.) Membership in the Boy Scouts of America is an honor that is granted and approved, not one that is God-given. For example, because of an amendment to the Constitution of the United States, we have the right to free speech. Citizenship is not a right. It can be denied based on certain rules. The same is true of membership in the Boy Scouts of America.

 

I've endured a lot in this fight, including my own spitting-mad mother calling me a homo-phobic nazi. As far as I'm concerned, it isn't homo-sexuals against the Boy Scouts of America. It's about the Boy Scouts of America, as a private organization, to defend it's right to determine its own standards of membership.

 

If we lose that right, what's to stop others from taking away a belief that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Saviour away from churches? Or to require other religions to admit anyone who wishes, whether or not they accept the practice, to their place of worship or congregation? The BSA certainly isn't a religion, but it's not that much of a stretch.

 

I'm off my soap-box now.

 

DS

[Bob White]

We agree. Hey, nice soap box by the way. You know....I think I can see my house from up here!

Bob