Here we go again....

[eisely]

It was about two years ago that the BSA in South Florida entered into an agreement in Dade County to refer youth who self identified themselves as homosexuals to other youth oriented homosexual programs. I do not know the details of that agreement, but apparently it has fallen apart. Hopefully other sources of funds will become available. Too bad the political activists are willing to sacrifice a beneficial program for minority youth to their agendas. This story is from the Miami Herald.

________

 

United Way in Dade ends Boy Scout funding

Disadvantaged areas hard hit

BY KARL ROSS

kross@herald.com

 

The United Way of Miami-Dade on Tuesday discontinued its funding for boy scouting programs, saying the local Boy Scouts of America affiliate failed to abide by an agreement requiring it to help gay youths cope with their sexuality.

 

In a private meeting, the United Way's board of directors voted unanimously to withhold its yearly funding grant of $480,000 for ''traditional scouting programs,'' according to the agency's spokeswoman, Tamara Klingler.

 

The grant serves primarily to pay the salaries of scout leaders in low-income areas including Little Havana, Liberty City, Homestead and Hialeah. About 4,200 kids, most between ages 6 and 17, will be directly affected by the cuts, she said.

 

Boy Scout leaders criticized the decision as ''unfair'' and said it could curtail services to three times as many youngsters in Miami-Dade County because of a ''spillover'' effect into other administrative areas.

 

''We really think this is a breach of the county's trust in the United Way,'' said Jeff Herrmann, scout executive for the South Florida Council of the Boy Scouts of America.

 

Herrmann said the cuts are poorly timed, as the organization gears up for summer camps and wilderness expeditions. He said scouting programs will have to be scaled back unless funding is obtained elsewhere.

 

LATEST SETBACK

 

The funding hit, effective June 30, is only the latest setback for the Boy Scouts of America since a 2000 ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court upholding the group's ban on homosexual scout leaders -- a policy critics decry as bigotry.

 

More than 50 United Way affiliates -- including those in Broward County, Orlando, Seattle and San Francisco -- have terminated their funding in recent years, costing the organization millions of dollars. Some of that lost funding has been offset by ''designated giving,'' as United Way donors are still entitled to direct contributions to specific programs, the Boy Scouts among them.

 

A six-point agreement between the United Way of Miami-Dade and the South Florida Council, reached in July 2001, was touted as a national model for depoliticizing the funding issue.

 

`DIVERSITY TRAINING'

 

Under the terms of the accord, local scout leaders would have been required to undergo ''diversity training.'' The training would have been crafted with the help of Project YES, a Miami group devoted to the needs of gay youth.

 

Klingler said the purpose of such training was learning how to orient ``the young boy who might be questioning his sexual identity, who might think he's gay.''

 

The South Florida Council agreed to the training, but the Dallas, Texas-based national organization stonewalled its implementation, she said.

 

''The signals constantly were that the national organization was not happy with this agreement,'' said Harve Mogul, United Way of Miami-Dade's president and CEO.

 

The Boy Scout's national spokesman, Greg Shields, could not be reached for comment Tuesday.

 

United Way executives say they will consider directing some of the funds to a character building program called Learning for Life, a subsidiary of the Boy Scouts of America, as United Way organizations have done in Boston, Los Angeles and Cleveland. That program is endorsed by state education officials and administered through the public schools system.

 

''We still have to do our homework before we make that decision,'' Mogul said.

 

The United Way of Miami-Dade was a major funding source for the South Florida Council, which runs scouting programs in Miami-Dade, Monroe and Broward counties. The Broward United Way suspended its funding in 2001. Only the Monroe County United Way has not shut off the funding spigot, kicking in $5,000 annually.

 

''We're talking about nearly half a million dollars,'' Herrmann said. ``That's roughly 20 percent of our annual budget. So it's a serious blow to the council's ability to deliver scouting programs.''

 

The council is holding a press conference today at its Miami Lakes offices to appeal to the community for funding, he said.

 

Herrmann said the Boy Scouts do have diversity training, but balked at the particulars in the agreement reached with the United Way and the gay rights organization SAVE Dade, which helped broker the talks. ''We did look at expanding our training until we understood what they expected from us,'' Herrmann said. ``We will not engage in lifestyle training. That's not in agreement with scout oath and law.''

 

He added the Boy Scouts would not refer youth in its program to ''groups we are not comfortable with'' -- meaning gay service organizations.

 

TELLING PARENTS

 

Herrmann said the organization's policy remains to tell the parents of gay youths about any concerns about their sexual orientation. He said the parents can consult their clergy or spiritual advisors.

 

Gay activists say such a policy could be devastating to gay youths, who have a higher-than-average suicide rate. They say scout leaders should be aware of counseling alternatives.

 

Jorge Mursuli, past executive director of SAVE Dade, said he was disheartened by the turn of events. Mursuli helped negotiate the 2001 accord.

 

''It's a shame the Boy Scouts have chosen not to live up to their commitment,'' Mursuli said. ``I think the community was really optimistic that we'd reached an original compromise.''

 

Fallout from the controversy can cut both ways, as was seen in Oregon last month when a United Way chapter there severed funding after adopting a nondiscrimination policy. The agency had allocated nearly $500,000 over three years.

 

The cuts prompted one Multnomah County commissioner to resign from the United Way's board and threats from elected officials to stop payroll-deduction campaigns, The Oregonian newspaper reported.

 

Elsewhere this year, a Cook County forestry board withheld granting the Boy Scouts permits at a suburban Chicago campsite it had been using for years. The board was concerned its ban on gays might violate the county's human rights ordinance.

 

[berkshirescouter]

I think this PCing of the United Way will backfire, some group somewhere will always disagree with its funding choices. The United Way will become the Divided Way. Sad for the people it helps as well as in this case for Scouting.

[frankj]

The United Way in Portland, OR recently adopted a policy that its community "partners" must adhere to a new and very broad dictate as to non-discrimination, thus cutting the Boy Scouts off.

[dsteele]

The Boy Scouts of America is strong. We will survive.

 

One of the reasons we're pushing so heavily on endowment gifts is the article posted above. Gifts given to endowment can not be spent. They are invested in funds and the interest can be used to pay for Scouting operations as needed on a day-to-day basis.

 

There are tax advantages to donors as well as the satisfaction of knowing that the $1,000 you gave for the James E. West Fellowship will always be there, generating a few dollars for Scouting forever every day and every year.

 

If we had enough in endowment, it wouldn't matter what others thought of us.

 

DS

[Mike F]

I stopped giving anything to United Way a couple of years ago. Now when United Way fund drive comes up at work, I simply write checks to troop and council, then tell them at work I've already contributed. I feel bad about the other good causes that won't get my support, but a good hard look at the list of things supported by United Way around here reveals a whole bunch I definitely do not want to support in any way.

[evmori]

What I love is an organization penalizing the BSA (or any organization) because they don't agree with the Supreme Court decision. It seems like a double edged sword to me. A no win situation.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Zahnada]

Well, we can't complain about the United Way. Boy Scouts is a private organization with the power to make decisions that are not favored by all. By the same standards, the United Way can make decisions on how to run their organization and what groups to include. It's too bad this conflict exists, but both groups made their decisions in an attempt to please their members and supporters.

 

In regards to the contraversy, I agree with much of what the article says. The teenage years are the most difficult in a young man's life. He fights for the acceptance of his peers. This is especially rough on a gay man. I hate the idea of the Boy Scouts basically saying, "You're kind is not welcome here" to anyone. This puts a lot of pressure on a young man and although it is not the goal, this dehumanizes him.

 

Whether you believe that homosexuality is right or wrong, I hope we can all agree that gays need help. Some will argue that they need help to find a better way of life. Others will say they need help to accept who they are. Either way, I'm sorry that Boy Scouts has deemed these individuals unworthy of help. If nothing else, Boy Scouts should assist these young men in finding similar organizations who will offer the support they need.

[Bob White]

"I hate the idea of the Boy Scouts basically saying, "You're kind is not welcome here" to anyone."

 

Think about that statement Zahnada. ANYONE?

You can't think of any trait that you would not want your son exposed to? Bestiality? Necrophilia? Pedophilia? Obscenity? Transvestite? Drug addict? Dope dealer? Wife beater? Alcoholic? Reckless driver?

 

You don't want anyone banned from scouting? or you just don't want the BSA to ban traits that you aren't bothered by?

 

Not directing homosexual minors to homosexual agencies is not deeming them unworthy to help. it's simply not what the BSA is here to do. We are not a social agency. We are not a social service clearing house. We are an educational organization specializing in character, citizenship and fitness development. If you have special needs outside of this area there are organizations that specialize in directing you to help. But, to direct youth to the homosexual services in the community is not our mission or area of expertise.

 

Bob White,

 

PS It seems every time the United Way cuts funds from Boy Scouts it is heralded or decried as the United Way striking out at the BSA's stance on homosexuality. Well this week our local UW posted the budget for 2003-2004 in our county. Three organizations were cut by nearly $15,000 each. The first was Boy Scouts (no doubt policy related right?), the second was Girl Scouts (but wait, they don't dicriminate!) The third organization cut by nearly $15000 was that vial, homophobic organization.....the United Way Agency.

 

Dsteele is right. The Scouting movement is in great shape. Funding comes and goes in waves. The county North of us (also in our council) Increased their share to us by nearly as much as this one cut. As GWB would say "stay the course".

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Zahnada]

Actually Bob White, your post bothers me. If you found out a boy in your troop was a drug addict would you turn him away? Would you say, "You're not welcome in Boy Scouts and I won't help you."?

 

I feel it is very unscoutlike to simply cast aside the people who engage in a lifestyle we don't agree with. (and some of the traits you listed are illegal and in my mind that puts them in a very different category than homosexuality)

 

And you say that it's not the BSA's responsibility to help gay boys. Maybe not officially, but as a scout I feel it is my responsibility to help anyone who needs it or desires it. The fact is that some boys do not know how to seek out whatever help they need. If Boy Scouts is going to turn them away, the least we can do is point them in a useful direction. It is wrong to simply wash our hands of the issue. That is dehumanization. You mention that there are organization who can direct boys to other groups who will help them. Let's give these boys the number of those organizations! As scouts and as humans it should be our responsibility.

 

Your statements disillusion me on scouting Bob White. If all Boy Scouts are only willing to help fellow scouts then the program has already failed. If people are willing to hide behind the statement "It's not the official responsibility of BSA so it's not my responsibility" then scouting has failed. If the people with real problems are the ones who are least deserving of aid then the system is flawed.

[Bob White]

"If you found out a boy in your troop was a drug addict would you turn him away?"

 

In a heart beat. As an adult leader I have a responsibility to the safety and welfare of the scouts I serve. Any youth or adult who is addicted to drugs or alcohol is a danger to himself and to the children I am responsible for. That person is gone until I am convinced that A)he can establish that his behavior is not a danger to himself and others, and B)he is not taking part in a any illegal activity.

 

I would certainly hope that if are an adult leader that you would take the same steps to insure the welfare of those in the unit including the person in question.

 

By the way if you approved the membership of a known drug abuser and they caused an accident that resulted in personal injury you could face criminal and civil charges along with permanent expulsion from the BSA. So tell me Zahnada, do you still want to let the drug addict into the scout unit?

 

"some of the traits you listed are illegal and in my mind that puts them in a very different category than homosexuality"

 

You set the ground rules Zahnada, and you said you didn't want to see ANYBODY turned away. You made no other qualifications and that is why I asked if this was truly what you would want the BSA to do.

 

You are upset because the BSA doesn't do something they are not trained or designed to do. The BSA isn't saying that you as a leader or scout could not direct them to a social service or alternate organization. They are telling United Way that that is not the function of the BSA and that there are other agencies who are responsible for those services. What is wrong with allowing each agency the freedomn to pursue their specific missions?

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Zahnada]

Bob White,

 

I hate arguments based solely on wording, but if that is what you choose...

 

"If you found out a boy in your troop was a drug addict would you turn him away?"

 

You took this statement as an indication that I would leave the boy in the troop. To leave a drug addict with other boys is irresponsible. It is just as irresponsible as throwing that boy out the door and turning my back on him. Either way, you are doing neither the boy nor society any great favor.

 

You say you will turn him away "in a heart beat" and I find that sad. I hope that there are scout leaders who will offer to help the boy find the right path. The first step of that journey would naturally take place outside the troop, but our responsibility as scouts does not only exist in the troop. So in answer to your question, I would not allow that boy to stay in the troop. But I would not "turn him away" and abandon him "in a heart beat."

 

As to your other point, I still stand by my statement that I don't like seeing ANYONE turned away. Naturally I don't like that. Do you? I don't like it because I don't like the fact that there are rapists, pedophiles, murders, and any number of other types of people who should not be in scouting. I hope that clears up some misunderstanding. I never said that I would throw the doors to scouting open to everyone. I just wish that the world was such that it would be safe.

 

However, I do not like the linking of homosexuality to a criminal act. Whether intentioned or not, your argument seems to make that connection. Sexuality is vague. Is a person who has some attraction to members of the same sex gay? What if they never act on these feelings? Does this make them worthy of expulsion from BSA?

 

Teen depression and teen suicide are important for any scout leader to understand. Scouts have a deep respect for the program and their leaders. To know that the program has (at least as your posts seems to indicate) lumped them with other "undesirables" such as necrophiliacs and wife beaters must be hard on a youth. It is hard to be unwanted. At this time I will not debate the actual policy of whether to allow gays or not. I am debating the way BSA handles scouts who are gay. To cast them aside "in a heart beat" is cruel especially if they have no where else to turn. The LEAST we could do is to show them places to go for help.

[Bob White]

Sorry Zahnada,

 

But I am not a trained in social services or rehab work, nor am I every boys parent. I'm a scout volunteer. I will be courteous when I turn him away, I will be helpful when I tell his parents they need to get him help, I will be trustworthy and protect the other scouts in my charge who he endangers, I will be kind and welcome him back when he is well.

 

This scout has adults who are morally and legally responsible for him. It is not as if he can join the troop without them knowing (check the registration form). If it is apparrent to me that this scout is an addict I have a responsibility to tell the parents or guardians of of my concern and then do what is needed to secure the safety and welfare of the other scouts in my role as a unit leader. It is his parents and guardians responsibility to get him the help he needs. If they ask for help I will direct them to consult a physician, and assure them that scouting will be there for him when he is well again.

 

To cast them aside "in a heart beat" is cruel especially if they have no where else to turn. It may seem cruel to you but accidents happen in the blink of an eye. An an individual whether youth or adult who shows up at a scouting activity under the influence of drugs or alcohol is not getting in the front door.

 

We are not talking about a scout who is depressed and contemplating suicide. You are talking about someone who is abusing drugs and quite likely has broken the law. Once when on a campout over 1000 miles from home we were informed two of our scouts had pot with them. I separated them from the rest of the scouts, called their parents and had them come get their scouts. Had I involved social services would you care to guess which one I would have called? It starts with 'pol' and ends with 'ice'.

 

Let me ask you Zahnada, parents bring their 13 year old son to a troop meeting and say they would like to join the troop. "Oh by the way" they say "he's gay". (why they tell you I haven't the slightest idea). What do you do? Register him? Explain he that he does not meet the eligibility to be a scout? Say "He can't join scouts but let me look around and see what kind of activities are available for him." don't you think by know he knows more about what is available for him in the community by now than you do? Don't you think the parents and the boy already know they can't join scouting?

 

I'm curious about your responses,

Bob

[Zahnada]

Bob White,

 

I'll start by answering your questions. Hypotheticals are always tough to answer because we can never know all the facts. The main question I have about the situation is whether the boy is comfortable or not in his sexuality. That makes a huge difference on my next course of action.

 

I disagree that we can automatically assume that the parents are aware of how strongly the Boy Scouts support their position. Although this is a high profile case, people do have a seletive perception so a person unaffiliated with BSA probably knows very little about the case. Therefore, I would explain that it is against regulation (which I would hate to do).

 

But I wouldn't leave it at that. I would automatically direct them towards other programs that offer similar programs to Boy Scouts. I don't think this situation is much of a problem because the boy sounds like he's accepted his sexuality. It's unfortunate that he cannot enjoy scouting.

 

The problems with this policy arise when it involves a boy already in the troop. It's a problem when the boy has developed a love of scouting and a respect for his leaders. If, at this vulnerable point in life, he realizes that he is gay then he will experience a stress and fear that we can hardly imagine. He probably knows that this course of life is the difficult one and he may try to fight it. If is now when depression comes into play. Now he feels unaccepted by general society. And it is at this time that the scouting organization will turn him away.

 

So what do you do in that situation? I hope that everyone in this forum is willing to extend their support to this boy. I hope that every scout wants to help this boy whether he remains a member of the troop or not. This boy is not a threat. He is not a danger. I won't debate the issue on whether he should be removed from scouting, but I will argue that the leaders still have a responsibility to help him. I don't mean counselling sessions. I think we as leaders need to assess the situation and maybe send him to a real counsellor.

 

I agree that a drug addict is a danger to the troop. Safety always comes first. But a gay boy is not a safety concern for the troop. The only safety concern I would have for a gay boy is the concern for his personal safety from depression. And it is wrong to believe that such a person is not our responsibility to help if we can.

 

"We are not talking about a scout who is depressed and contemplating suicide. You are talking about someone who is abusing drugs and quite likely has broken the law."

 

I am very much talking about depression and suicide. I don't know when the conversation began to link the experience of a gay youth to the experience of a drug addict.

 

As for the drug addict, I agree that they have no place in the troop. As I stated before, safety first. And I like how you went through the parents to deal with the situation. I'm glad that the door to your troop is open for them when they get better. I like how you handle the situation. I would add that I would give the parents assurance that I am there for support. I would also extend the same to the youth. Some follow-ups are always important to let them know that I still care and that scouting is still there.

 

It's sad, but it's life. Unfortunately I think we can all agree that more boys bring drugs, tobacco, alcohol, and pornography on outings than we are aware. There are also more gay scouts out there than we are aware. I hate to see any boy experience a rough life. I guess I'm a catcher in the rye, but I feel that a purpose of scouting is to help anyone who needs it and wants it. There is no better good deed.

[Bob White]

"The main question I have about the situation is whether the boy is comfortable or not in his sexuality"

 

My apologies,I had no idea you had the expertise to make that evaluation. Certainly then you have the background to know the variety of resources available to the youth depending on the level of comfort that you determine he has with his sexuality. Let's hope you recommend the proper treatment or services to him, otherwise you could yourself in the midst of a nasty lawsuit. Not to wory though, I'm sure you pay quite a bit for the professional liability you have as a counselor.

 

Scout volunteers on the other hand do not as a rule have that professional background or training to make such an evaluation. We work with eligible members to deliver a specific program that does not include such indepth pschological evaluation and placement services.

 

I think it's great that you are prepared to help a young person to cope with his sexuality. Plaese do not expect the approx. 200 scout service centers to each have someone with that ability. Also understand that to discuss sexuality with a youth member of the BSA can lead to your removal from the scouting program.

 

Best of luck,

Bob White

[dsteele]

Getting back to the topic of the BSA losing United Way funding regarding it's standards of membership . . .

 

We won the Dale case in the U.S. Supreme Court. I can't remember which very high level BSA official said it to me, but I knew it to be the truth when he said it. This was while the case was being heard. He said, "Either way, we lose." Well, he was right and he wasn't right.

 

I think many councils have taken financial "hits" because of it. I also think there has been an equal and opposite financial "gain" from donors who admire us for sticking with our values.

 

I think many United Ways have taken "hits" and have passed those on to their local council. I also think that those "hits" to the BSA have been their loss and our gain. I believe that the United Way has a right to determine who to fund and who not to fund. I also believe the BSA has a right to seek alternative funding, even if it violates United Way rules (which are many) to do so. The council, however risks the wrath of United Way if it breaks those rules and United Way risks the wrath of the silent majority if it fails to fund the Boy Scouts.

 

Now I'm going to go upstairs and watch a movie. It's Saturday, after all. Have a nice one.

 

DS