Removal of family from troop

[littlebillie]

twin-wasp - do you think under the uniform example you give that the adults should or should not mention the problems that the boys will encounter during any 'competitive', inter-troop uniform inspection run by the books? should they point out the problem? or should they let the boys step into it and learn that way? or...

 

just curious. and if fact, we don't know if the troop in ? didn't already address this in a Troop meeting versus Camporee kind of consideration anyway.

[Eagledad]

>>The jackhammer seems to be a straight forward case of safety. You have to intervene as a scouter, as a parent you have to intervene if your own kid is involved.

[packsaddle]

"Chainsaws and mechanical log splitters may be authorized for use only by trained individuals over the age of 18, using proper protective gear in accordance with local laws."

 

That "over the age of 18" part pretty much rules out most boy scouts. Jackhammers aren't specifically mentioned, but...keeping to the spirit of this and similar regs (the one on go carts, for example), I think that most tools with power similar to the above would be suspect. Your opinion is just as valid. Little matter, though, have a boy cut off a finger or a hand (or someone else's) with a skillsaw and then see what fun you have in court. Hang on to your personal liability insurance and have a nice weekend.

[twin_wasp]

Little Billie,

 

I would and have pointed out consequences, if any, occur for being improperly dressed. I have had this conversation over and over with scouts and with my own kids. In general, boys around here are OK about being uniformed at a scouting event, but the middle school boys (over 12) would rather die than be seen in public in uniform. I know this runs counter to the party line, but that is a fact of life.

 

Dress codes in reality have four levels, out of uniform, in uniform, "Class A" (meaning with sashes and pins and all awards) and Class B - a troop shirt. I believe it is proper for the PLC to establish rules for precisely when and where each level is required.

 

Of course, they should insure that BSA rules are also followed - such as uniforms for retreat and meetings.

 

If the boys tried to introduce a ban on earrings or rock band shirts (actually the last thing they would do) or modify the uniform in a subtantive way, we would have to research whether they had the authority, which can turn into a good lesson in the way Americans govern themselves.

 

I have been thinking about what my reaction would be to parents who consistently pointed out all the shortcomings of my troop. I think there is a time and a place for it, and it belongs in committee meetings, not in the scout meeting. My gut reaction to a parent who came in out of the blue quoting the more obscure points of scout policy to me and why I was doing things wrong would be "who died and made you commissioner". That would be my gut reaction, and I mean no disrespect to the folk who started this thread - they may even have constructive criticism, and they might even be right in which case I would be obligated to stsnd corrected.

 

However, they are best served by joining up as scouters, getting training, and shouldering some of the responsibility. I am now a semi retired scouter, (for now) but we forget how demanding scoutering is. Scouting season runs year round, not like a sport that has a limited season. Scouting puts extraordinary responsibilty on the scoutmaster, who must not only master his troop, but also the complexities of relations with the sponsor, the committee and the professional organization.

 

TW

 

 

[Bob White]

Uniforms

 

I understand where twin wasp is coming from in his explaination of 4 levels of the scout uniform, unfortunately it is not supported in any resource or training of the BSA.

 

In the Cub Scout and Boy Scout programs there are two conditions of uniforming; in uniform, and out of uniform. There are three uniforms; the field uniform, the activity uniform, and the dress uniform.

 

Class A's and B's are remnants of military terms and are not used in any official way by the BSA.

 

The option offered of a troop shirt is not a uniform, it is simply wearing a troop shirt. Wearing it with scout pants or shorts, scout belt and scout socks would make it a BSA activity uniform.

 

Just as wearing a scout shirt with blue jeans is no closer to being in the scout uniform than wearing a western style shirt and scout pants would be. The scout uniform is not just the shirt you wear.

 

Power Tools

Just as military terms and misconceptions have worked their way into scouting so have terms and misconceptions from other governmental agencies. Power tool rules is a good example.

 

There are all kinds of jack hammers and many scouts, with proper training and wearing the appropriate personal protection equipment (PPEs), would be perfectly capable to operate.

 

As pointed out there are very few tools that scouts are prohited to use. So where did this idea that you had to be 18 come from? The business community, specifically OSHA and State Child Labor Laws. The thing to remember is that those rules do not apply to any non-employees.

They are there to prohibit and punish abuse by employers. You could not operate a troop and follow OSHA guidelines or the Child Labor Laws.

 

You cannot operate scouting by the concepts of other organizations. We are different, and for scouts to get the most out of the program it is important that leaders attend training, read the program resources and understand those differences.

 

White finger or HAVS as it is called today (Hand Arm Vibration Syndrome) is a result of operating vibrating tools on a regular basis and almost always takes years of exposure to contract.

 

The other injuries mentioned can be easily avoided by proper training and operation while wearing the recommended PPEs.

 

Hope this helps,

Bob White

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[packsaddle]

Actually, my quote with the age 18 limit came from the G2SS. I presume that BSA is the source of that wording, not OSHA. And it is possible that I have an out-of-date rendition. Do I? My intent, however, was to draw a comparison between power tools with explicit age limits to un-named power tools of similar power and risk. But BW is correct, as soon as I find a Dremel version of the jackhammer I'll pass that news along.

[Bob White]

Although I agree your quote came from the G2SS it is specific in its coverage.

Chainsaws and mechanical log splitters may be authorized for use only by trained individuals over the age of 18, using proper protective gear in accordance with local laws.

 

Even Webelos scouts use powered tools in their advancement program. The key is that all applicable laws be followed, that proper training be given prior to use, That all applicable safety devices and personal protection equipment be used and adult supervision be present.

 

My son started using power tools in 7th grade at school with less supervision then he gets when scouting.

 

If you use good leadership skills and follow the rules you do not need to worry about liability. It's poor leadership that causes accidents and injuries, let the basd leaders worry.

 

Bob White

[jark]

I see we have gone quite off the beaten path here, but a lot of good discussion is happening.

 

To clarify some of the facts I was dealing from was

 

1. The jackhammer exclusion came directly from the person at our council office that approves the tour permits as restricted to 18 and over. Period. If the leaders running at this Eagle project had checked this out beforehand they would have known better. They didn't and so by the rules of our council they put the boys in danger.

 

2. The uniform issue was brought up by us in a parent committee meeting, not a troop meeting so we thought it the correct forum for the discussion. Again, our point was that they were allowing the boys to make up a policy that would have allowed more than just full uniforms and troop shirts for events. They would have been able to wear rock groups and other labelled items to troop events. The previous uniform policy we had in effect was simple and appropriate. Why we even needed it to be addressed suprised us also.

 

As stated earlier, I was trying to find out how one properly asks a family to leave a unit. We were ordered from our unit with no meeting of the parties having an issue with us. The CR was not aware that this action was happening. And our boys were ordered to leave, even though the problem appeared to be at the adult level.

 

If anyone has more comments along these lines it would be great to hear them!

 

Thanks.

[twin_wasp]

Bob White:

 

Point well taken about the term "Class A" - but I meant to differentiate the difference between the uniform you wear to a court of honor - sashes, pin on religious awards, service pins etc and the one you wear to dinner at camp followed by the campfire - rank, temporary camporee patch, and none of the pin on stuff. BSA does not to my knowledge have a specific term - but my troop often used the term "class A" to mean your full uniform.

 

I think this could be interpreted as a gap between "BSA policy" and reality, but I BSA policy is not intended to cover every aspect of scouting. BSA policy requires some things, bans other things, and offers a lot of sanctioned and recommended activities. The rest of the program is up to the troops, and the scouters to come up with - which is where the fun begins. BSA is the "outdoor game", and a boy led game at that.

 

A dress code of some sort is not a bad idea, if it comes from the boys themselves. Part of Courteous and Clean involves developing judgement about what to wear when, and boys are developing this judgement when they work out a plan that identifies when to wear your out of uniform work clothes - things like the conservation project at the swamp, when to wear the troop T shirt. While BSA rules may not "officially" recognize troop T shirts, it is a wide practice and parallels the Ts that BSA actually issues for camp staff.

 

About jackhammers and similar tools of mayhem - as a Scouter, I would feel obligated to check out the safety issues. Labor law limits minors from using certain machinery, but it does not apply to persons not on the job. It boils down to experienced supervision - common sense, knowing the rules, and having your liability insurance paid up.

 

Bottom line - I leave jackhammers to folks more experienced than me with power tools.

 

Finally,

 

in response to Jark's last post,

 

I guess I understand that the troop and you have differences of opinion, however, I do not see either of your criticisms as deal breakers, ie issues that raise to the point of either you leaving the troop or the troop throwing you out.

 

"A man's got to know his limitations" (Clint Eastwood, I forget which movie).

 

[Bob White]

twin wasp

The BSA DOES recognize a troop t-shirt, and allows it either as a non-uniform piece (t-shirt and shorts or jeans) or as an activity uniform piece Troop t-shirt, scout pants or scout shorts, scout belt scout socks). The field uniform comes in many varieties depending on the preferences and accomplishments of the individual. A scout who correctly displays his scout badge on his uniform shirt, with scout pants or scout shorts, scout belt and scout socks is as correctly uniformed as a Life Scout with OA flap, merit badge sash, neckerchief, Senior Patrol Leader patch, with scout pants or scout shorts, scout belt and scout socks. And both are better uniformed Than an Eagle Scout in Scout uniform shirt, Merit Badge Sash and jeans. The BSA does not regulate how much you wear, only that it is worn correctly.

 

Scouting does not require a scout to be in uniform at all times. In fact scout leader training states that there are perfectly legitimate times to be out of uniform. What is recommended is that a scout wear as complete and correct a uniform as he has, and that the unit NOT set artificial uniform guidelines that it has no authority over. The goal should always be a complete uniform and for a troop to make artificial rules such as "we don't require scout pants" is not within the authority of the unit. Only the BSA can determine the uniform of the Boy Scouts of America. The troop can determine whatever out of uniform fashion they want.

 

Bottom line,

Jarks concern about lax uniforming on ouytings and use of a jackhammer.

 

Can the boys decide to not wear scout uniforms on campouts? yes nowhere does the program require that scouts wweaqr uniforms to camp.

 

Can a scout operate a jack hammer? Yes, the BSa does not prohibit the scouts who have proper training and wearing appropriate safety equipment from using this tool.

 

The troop leadership from the information Jark has shared does not seem to have done anything wrong. Jark should have checked the rules before he complained.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[OldGreyEagle]

Twin_Wasp

 

Sorry, I just couldnt let it bee.

 

"A man has to know his limitations" spoken by Clint Eastwood as Detective Harry Calahan in the second dirty Harry movie "Magnum Force" which was the movie debut of Robert Urich. David Soul was also in this movie prior to Starsky and Hutch fame. (which one was he? Starsky or Hutch?)

 

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread...(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[packsaddle]

OGE, thanks for the sense of humor. But I doubt you can return US from the outer limits (or was that the twilight zone?). As my wife says, "thanks for the memories", or at least I think that's what she says, h'mm. I'll have to sleep on it.

[OldGreyEagle]

Packsaddle, you want to return? You know you always have had that power, just click the heels of the ruby slippers together and repeat, "there's no place like home, there's no place like home, etc"

[packsaddle]

OGE, I say that everytime I...uh, probably can't say that here. Wait a minute, are you clairvoyant? How'd you know about my slippers? Shhhhh, remember that 'over the rainbow' thing from another thread? I don't want the secret to get out. "I can always rely on the charity of strangers", can't I?

 

OK, my disclaimer for those of you who are, well, you know, 'wound just a little too tight' and you know who you are, ok no names, we're just joking. You're joking aren't you, OGE, right?

[OldGreyEagle]

only one word

 

Stella!!!.................