Smoking and campouts

[littlebillie]

secret smoking and drinking seems to be getting defended by some of the same folks that would condemn be secretly gay or atheist.

 

no real point - just an observation

[Bob White]

That's quite a stretch littlebillie.

I have a beer once in a great while, I don't do it at a scout campout or at the office, but I would not consider it drinking secretly. It is about being mature enough to know what behaviour is appropriate in a given situation and what is not.

 

I will agree with you on your observation however, it had no real point.

 

BW

[littlebillie]

ummm, Bob, not sure what your response really has to do with my post unless you're saying that as long as gays and atheists don't do that stuff around the boys, they're welcome?

 

the secret drinkers and smokers I'm referring to go out behind the dumpster...

 

 

[ASM1]

Ed,

 

how is this unclear:

 

"Adult leaders....may not allow the use of tobacco products at any BSA activity involving youth participants."

 

Does it say "prohibited" as in the preceeding para. in the G2SS? No, but "may not allow" is just as clear. You may not allow this whether you like it or not. If your council, district or troop allows it, they are in violation of the G2SS.

 

I'm not an anti-smoking nazi, but the rules are very clear. I maintain that there is only one conceivable interpretation.

 

YIS (scouting, not smoking )

Quixote

 

 

This is EXACTLY what I mean folks by volunteers quoting policy as they see it and trying desperately to implement it into actual policy. Consult your council folks when in doubt. Our district is full of these thinking folks who wish to impose their ideals of scouting. Council hold the rules, the rest is just a volunteer opinion.

 

ASM1

[SR540Beaver]

[Middle English, from Old English meahte, mihte, first and third person sing. past tense of magan, to be able. See may.]

 

Our Living Language

 

In many Southern U.S. varieties of English, might can be paired with other auxiliary verbs such as could, as in We might could park over there. Words like might and could are known as modals, since they express certain moods (for example, I might go indicates an uncertain mood on the part of the speaker). Combinations such as might could, might would, and might can are known as double modals. Other less common combinations include may can, may will, and might should. Since double modals typically begin with may or might, they lessen the degree of conviction or certainty (much like the word possibly) more than a single modal does. Double modals are used, for example, to minimize the force of what one is saying, as when asking someone for a favor or when indicating displeasure. Although double modals may sound odd outside of the South, they carry little if any social stigma within the South and are used by speakers of all social classes and educational levels even in formal instances like political addresses. Like many features of Southern varieties of English, the use of double modals is probably due to the fact that many of the first English speakers in the South were Scotch-Irish, whose speech made use of double modals. This feature has been noted as far back as the Middle English period, but today's most common forms were not used to any great extent until the mid-18th century. They are surprisingly rare in dialect fiction but do occasionally occur, as in Old Yeller by Fred Gipson: Jumper's liable to throw a fit with that hide rattling along behind him, and you might not can hold him by yourself.

 

Source: The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

Copyright 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

Generations of grammarians and teachers have insisted that can should be used only to express the capacity to do something, and that may must be used to express permission. But children do not use can to ask permission out of a desire to be stubbornly perverse. They have learned it as an idiomatic expression from adults: After you clean your room, you can go outside and play. As part of the spoken language, this use of can is perfectly acceptable. This is especially true for negative questions, such as Can't I have the car tonight? probably because using mayn't instead of can't sounds unnatural. Nevertheless, in more formal usage the distinction between can and may still has many adherents. Only 21 percent of the Usage Panel accepts can instead of may in the sentence Can I take another week to submit the application? The heightened formality of may sometimes highlights the speaker's role in giving permission. You may leave the room when you are finished implies that permission is given by the speaker. You can leave the room when you are finished implies that permission is part of a rule or policy rather than a decision on the speaker's part. For this reason, may sees considerable use in official announcements: Students may pick up the application forms tomorrow.

 

Source: The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

Copyright 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

 

 

[Quixote]

per ASM1

 

 

This is EXACTLY what I mean folks by volunteers quoting policy as they see it and trying desperately to implement it into actual policy. Consult your council folks when in doubt. Our district is full of these thinking folks who wish to impose their ideals of scouting. Council hold the rules, the rest is just a volunteer opinion.

 

ASM1

 

 

Read the policy - if you think the BSA endorses your smoking in front of a scout, you're full of it. As far as me trying "desperately" to make policy, I read the policies and when they are not crystal clear, I ask Council for guidence. I have asked my Council - they interpret the rules the same way as they are WRITTEN. Just so happens that my opinion, as a volunteer is just as relevant as yours, except my Council "interprets" the policy as saying that you MAY NOT USE TOBACCO IF SCOUTS ARE PRESENT. If National had wanted to allow it, they should have worded the policy to say that you should not, not may not.

 

As far as me trying to enforce the policy, if i saw you smoking on a scout event, my only issue would be that you not smoke or chew or dip or whatever in front of the scouts.

 

Mom, MAY i have a cigarette?

 

No, Johnnie, you MAY NOT.

 

YIS

Quixote

[Eamonn]

Boy does this one hit close to home. Much as I hate to admit it, I smoke.

However, I like to think of myself as a polite smoker.

I don't smoke in your house.

I don't smoke in your car.

I don't smoke near your child.

If my smoking is causing you any discomfort,I will move or put the cigarette out.

I have been smoking for a long time and have tried to quit, but I'm still smoking. You will find me outside in the freezing cold, puffing away.

Come the day when the BSA,tells me that they don't need me as a volunteer, and they don't need the money that I donate. It will be sad, but then I will go.

I also enjoy the odd beer.

I don't drink and drive.

I don't drink in front of children,unless they are, where they ought not be ( I hate to see children at Adult weddings and the like.)

I don't ever drink in uniform or on property used or owned by the BSA.

But yes there are a few of us poor "Sinners" who after a board meeting have gone and had a beer and some of us smokers, have lit up.

I never got into the drug thing. I think because it was never legal, maybe if it had been I might have tried that as well. I think that with the bad habits that I have now, that I have enough.

However, I do feel that even with all my failings that I'm not such a bad chap.

Come to think of it there was another Englishman, who smoked a pipe.

What was his name ?

He took a bunch of boys to a small island.

[Bob White]

I don't speak for others Eamonn, but as for me I do not think you are a bad leader if you smoke, and it is not my understanding that the BSA does not feel you are a bad leader if you smoke.

 

It's smoking in front of the scouts thats wrong. After reading all the posts arguing the language of the rule I seems to me the problem isn't with leaders smoking. Even the leaders on this board who smoke say they don't smoke in front of the scouts.

 

I am beginning to think what they dislike is that the policy says that the leader may not allow others to smoke in front of the scouts and that is what they want to avoid. By saying that rule does not prohibit smoking but leaves it to an individuals choice, the leader avoids the need to tell a smoker to put the cigarette out or go elsewhere to smoke. By viewing the policy as ambiguous the leader does not have to exert the kind of authority over an adult as they do so often over a scout. I now believe that the leaders understand the harm of smoking and do not smoke in front of the scouts out of concern for them, but are not willing to confront adults for the scouts benefit.

 

By the way I do appreciate your post and the courtesy you show to others.

 

Bob White

 

[Bob White]

OOPs! I'm sorry Eamon that last note was probably confusing, I meant to say "and it is my understanding that the BSA does not feel you are a bad leader if you smoke."

 

BW

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[sst3rd]

I get tired of folks breaking words down and interpreting them (spin???) in a manner that works for them.

 

It's all about common sense and courtesy. Our Troop has never had to deal with smokers inappropriately smoking at any time in front of our Scouts. We have a Scout building out back behind the church we meet in. I've never (SM) had to put up "No Smoking" signs. When I see a new parent who is smoking, before I can talk with them, they're already putting the cigarette out in the gravel drive way as they take their Scout inside. And we've had lots of smokers over the years (Phillip Morris is right down the road).

 

sst3rd

[SR540Beaver]

sst3rd,

 

Interpreting words is not spin. Words make up our language and it is how we communicate. Each and every word has a meaning. If you and I have an argument and I say, "I'm going to kill you" instead of saying, "I'm going to split your lip".....how are you going to interpret my words? That I'm mad and I'm going to punch you or that I'm mad and I'm going to kill you? They are both threats, but one is much more serious than the other. The police and district attorney are sure going to be more interested in the wording I used and their meanings. I have no problem with the BSA prohibiting smoking. I'm not a smoker, so it doesn't affect me! But if that is the intent of their policy, they need to say it in such a way that no one can miss the meaning. The fact that this thread has run to as many posts as it has is an indication that the policy is unclear to many people. When the policy says that drugs and alcohol is prohibited, it means exactly that. They are prohibited, period. When it says you "may not allow" tobacco, the interpretation of the word "may" leaves the door open to a choice of permitting it or not. Why did the BSA and it's lawyers choose ambigious language on tobacco and not on drugs and alcohol in the same policy. If their intent is to prohibit it....they need to spell it out where their can be no question. The debate and problem will rage on until they take steps to settle it.

[ASM1]

Despite the accusation, I do not support or endorse smoking in front of any Scout. It is wrong! Plain and simple. We set up an adult area away from the Scouts for our smoking. Scouts are not allowed in the adult area which is always out of sight of the youth camping area.

 

ASM1

[scoutldr]

Just curious, Eamonn, why do you apply different rules to alcohol than you do tobacco?

 

I have to wonder, if beer-drinking volunteers got up in arms and threatened to quit and withdraw financial support unless they were provided the same dispensation as smokers (special "drinking areas" out of the line of sight), what would the response be.

[Eamonn]

I don't think that I, in any way threatened. I said if the BSA didn't want me I would go. I fail to see a threat in that.

As to drinking, I thank the good Lord, that going without drugs and alcohol, is something that I can handle. I would hope that those that can't would get the help they need.

I would also hope that these poor souls would not engage in drinking or drug taking anywhere near children.Which on reflection,is much the same as the BSA policy on smoking.However,on drinking and drugs there is a clear line, that can not be crossed.

I feel, that I may be at fault in that, I didn't say: " The use of tobacco product at any Scouting activity where children are present, is wrong. So don't do it, and don't allow others to do it."

Many of the activities that I attend, while they are Scouting activities, do not have children present. Also some of these are not uniformed, or held on property owned or run by the BSA.

Reading through this thread, it seemed to me that we were trying to hold Adult Leaders in Scouting to a standard that just isn't realistic. We are human, and do have failings. Sad to say, some like myself have many.Still just like everything both in and out of Scouting, I live by the promise that I made to do my best.

However, there are times when I can't hide behind just doing my best, these times are when there is a rule. I don't do my best, to wear the entire uniform, I wear it, and I expect others to do the same.

The same goes for smoking. I don't smoke in the presensce of children, and expect you to do the same.

We could find lots of rules, which were made to be kept, and to my mind if you can't accept the rules, then maybe you need to look at your membership of this organization.

If the BSA, turned around tomorrow and said that only Adults that don't smoke could be involved. There would be no threat, I would go, because that would be the rule