ACLU sues Old Baldy council for fraudulent HUD grant

[littlebillie]

Mark,

 

Satanists worship Satan and many believe in God. How does that synch your thought? Not promoting the one, just curious about the other.

 

 

 

 

[littlebillie]

ec. 30902. - Purposes

 

The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916.

 

 

Hmmm - apparently girls aren't mentioned in the charter. that's probably a digression, esp. since the international bodies are encouraging the US orgs to look at uniting and becoming co-ed. (Also, I don't read any prequalifications for the boys' memberships, and I will repeat that some kids that might be seen as at risk are banned from the program before they even apply. shameful, really.)

 

be THAT as it may, all I can see that Merlyn has ever really said is that NO exclusionary private organization should get preferential access to public moneys or other support, especially if no other private organization gets any at all.

 

I can't believe that, in fairness, anyone really has a problem with that? Should Scouts be given preferential treatment over other groups, or should it be share and fair alike?

 

On the other hand, I don't think that if the GSUSA or a Bible Study group gets access to school facilities, that the BSA should be ousted, either - parity, after all.

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Mark:

Is it being too simplistic to say that the BSA does not descrimnate based on religion, they don't have any care what religion you are, they just require a belif in God?

 

Yes, it's too simplistic.

 

That isn't religious descrimination in my book.

 

Well, it's religious discrimination in the legal books.

 

They aren't descriminating against anyone belonging to a specific religion.

 

If the BSA required all members to believe in only one god and started kicking out polytheists, that wouldn't be discriminating against a specific religion, either. It would eliminate members of a number of polytheistic religions, however.

 

If you want to say they descriminate against atheists, well that's another discussion. Athiesms isn't a religion. The BSA does not practice religious descrimination.

 

By the legal definition of "religious discrimination", it does.

[Bob White]

Let's keep in mind what it means to discriminate, and that not all discrimination is illegal, and not all discrimination that is illegal in one situation is illegal in another.

 

We seem to equate discrimination with immoral or illegal on this board and that is not the truth.

 

BW

[mk9750]

First let me try to describe my embarassment when I reread my post and saw how consistantly I mispelled DISCRIMINATE. Never mind, suffice to say I am embarassed.

 

ML -

 

I am not a lawyer. I don't recall you saying whether you are or not, but you appear to have a deeper legal knowledge than do I. Please tell me what the law defines and religious discrimination. I am not being antagonistic. I want to know.

 

But until you can help me with that, I still believe that if anything, IMO, the BSA is discriminating against atheists. And as BW points out, not all discrimination is illegal, or immoral (if it were immoral, I'd like to believe that the BSA would not do so). As an analogy (and despite a comment previous, this IS an anology), I discriminate by prefering NY strip steaks to porterhouse, I discriminate by prefering blonds to brunettes (although my brunette wife will be offended to hear that), and I discriminate by prefering to asociate with people of high moral character (by MY definition) rather than low life scum. I believe none of these are illegal, and I also believe none are immoral. It is my right as a citizen of this planet to discriminate in this manner. And none of this would disqualify me for a HUD grant. Let's face it - You are promoting discrimination against groups you believe discriminate. If it is an absence of discrimination you fight for, than allow yourself to accept the government not to discriminate against certain groups, among which are the BSA.

 

Unless for some reason discrimating against atheists is religious discrimination (which until I see some clause that says so, I don't think it is, and, even if shown evidence, I'd say it was ridiculous), then the BSA has done nothing wrong here.

 

I am mad at myself that I've allowed myself to be drawn into such a waste of time as debating this. Although I will monitor this in case I can be enlightened, I'm done posting on this thread.

 

Mark

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

I discriminate by prefering NY strip steaks to porterhouse, I discriminate by prefering blonds to brunettes (although my brunette wife will be offended to hear that), and I discriminate by prefering to asociate with people of high moral character (by MY definition) rather than low life scum. I believe none of these are illegal, and I also believe none are immoral. It is my right as a citizen of this planet to discriminate in this manner. And none of this would disqualify me for a HUD grant.

 

If you went to HUD and said you'd like a grant, but you'd only allow blonds access to your program, that would quite possibly be classed as racial discrimination and you'd be turned down (some races have few or no blonds, so your arbitrary criteria would impact different races disproportionally).

 

Let's face it - You are promoting discrimination against groups you believe discriminate.

 

No, I'm not. I'm promoting equal treatment. ALL applicants for HUD grants have to agree to follow their nondiscrimination requirements - there's no special exemption for Boy Scouts. The same requirements that disqualify the Boy Scouts for excluding atheists would also disqualify an organization that excluded polytheists, or Jews, or that only allowed atheists.

 

If it is an absence of discrimination you fight for, than allow yourself to accept the government not to discriminate against certain groups, among which are the BSA.

 

I'm only asking that my government treat the BSA the same as any other religiously discriminatory private group; no charters from public schools, no HUD grants to expand their membership, etc.

 

Unless for some reason discrimating against atheists is religious discrimination (which until I see some clause that says so, I don't think it is, and, even if shown evidence, I'd say it was ridiculous), then the BSA has done nothing wrong here.

 

Discriminating against atheists is certainly religious discrimination; it's a credal requirement. Requiring someone to subscribe to the tenet "god exists" is no different that requiring "jesus is lord" or "gods don't exist"; any of these requirements constitute religious discrimination.

 

Here's the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission

http://www.eeoc.gov/docs/threshold.html

...

c. Religion

The Commission defines "religion" to include moral or ethical beliefs as to right and wrong that are sincerely held with the strength of traditional religious views.(25) This broad coverage ensures that individuals are protected against religious discrimination regardless of how widespread their particular religious beliefs or practices are. It also ensures that the Commission will not have to determine what is or is not a religion, something which it would be inappropriate for the government to do. Religious discrimination also includes discrimination against someone because s/he is an atheist.(26)

...

 

You also might want to read Torcaso v. Watkins:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=367&invol=488

 

[littlebillie]

I have to think that religious discrimination has to include any discrimination against atheists if the sole or basic cause of that discrimination is based on nothing more than the fact of their atheism, and the discrimination is by religious individuals or groups.

 

here, the discrimination is being done by the religious; i.e., religious discrimination - by, just not against. racial discrimination can be seen as having both sides - discrimination by as well as discrimination against.

 

indeed, part of my dictionary's definitions of religion include a code of behavior or ethics, and lists humanism as a religion. so I suppose there can be a religion without a god - I'm no expert, but isn't Confucianism based on the mortal human teacher, and no god, at least in the western sense? So would this be an atheistic religion?

 

but really, it's such a ridiculous cavil anyway. if you discriminate, as and because of being a believer, against any person simply because you perceive them as godless, you're still discriminating - whether YOU want to call it RELIGIOUS or not - on the basis of YOUR religion.

 

just a perspective...

 

 

 

[Bob White]

littlebillie,

I don't think anyone argues that the BSA discriminates. The fact i that it is neither immoral or illegal for them to do so. And the fact that someone may not agree withit does not make it immoral or illegal. Everyone discriminates every day. It merely means to make a choice between what you see as good or bad, or even good and better.

 

Some forms of discrimination are illegal but not all.

 

For a diffent perspective on this issue look at this HUD bulletin.

 

www.hud.gov/news/release.cfm?content=pr02-150.cfm

 

Another thing to remember is that the grant money cannot be used for salraies or camp improvements and the like. It is used for improvement projects that benefit low income housing areas. Like for instance the $2 million dolloars the Girls scouts got in a HUD grand for lanscaping products they used to beautify Low income housing neighborhoods.

 

I doubt that the people who recieve the benefit of the money and volunteer work care about the membership requirements of the group doing the work.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[ScoutParent]

The government frequently discriminates---giving a minority applicant preference over a non minority applicant is discrimination based on race. That is most certainly discrimination and its funded by our tax dollars--have you taken a stance against that or do you prefer to spend your time bashing youth organizations?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

The government frequently discriminates---giving a minority applicant preference over a non minority applicant is discrimination based on race.

 

And there are plenty of laws regulating this.

 

That is most certainly discrimination and its funded by our tax dollars--have you taken a stance against that or do you prefer to spend your time bashing youth organizations?

 

I'm not "bashing" youth organizations, I'm trying to get a dishonest youth organization (the BSA) to stop defrauding my government. The discrimination you're complaining about is known and regulated by the government; the discrimination I'm complaining about are violations of the laws as they are now written, by BSA councils that are lying to the government.

 

When a BSA council signs a nondiscrimination agreement and then violates it by still practicing discrimination, that's fraud.

 

When the BSA charters a Venturing crew to a public high school to be used as the school's main recreational provider, the school has set up a situation where all students (except atheists and gays) can participate in basketball, theatre, pottery, and water polo. That's violating the civil rights of the students being excluded.

[OldGreyEagle]

Merlyn can you tell me where this Venture Crew is that is providing the recreational program for a high school? I would love to find out more about them

[littlebillie]

BW,

 

the response was to Mark - tring to point out that discrimation against an atheist is indeed religous discrimination. he was asking the old question of how can discrimination against an atheist be religious.

 

yes. we all know the BSA discriminates. that wasn't the immediate issue, but thanks.

[berkshirescouter]

I would like to turn the question up side down. If the BSA were denied a HUD grant because they are a faith based organization wouldnt that be discrimination on the basis of religion? Could you also say HUD was then promoting non religion, that is Atheism?

Food for thought?

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I would like to turn the question up side down. If the BSA were denied a HUD grant because they are a faith based organization wouldnt that be discrimination on the basis of religion?

 

But that isn't the reason why the BSA would be turned down; it would be turned down because the HUD grant itself would be used in a way that religiously discriminates (Old Baldy used theirs to fund a scoutreach program to increase membership, and, of course, atheists couldn't join). If an organization, faith-based or not, wants a HUD grant, they have to agree to and abide by the nondiscrimination requirements of that grant.

 

to OGE, I don't want to publically reveal specific information about the school just yet, because we're still looking for plaintiffs for a possible lawsuit.

[Eamonn]

Dear Mr.Le Roy,

I started reading this forum yesterday, and have to admit that it upset me. So I "Walked Away."

To be honest, I was a little unsure of what was the cause of this feeling.

Today in the light of a new day, I now know that you are the cause.

I have a hard time believing, that I can dislike someone that I have never met.

But you sir; I don't like.

I can respect, the rights of people, who think that when things are not as they ought to be have to file whatever lawsuit, they want.

I can respect people who have different; Views, Lifestyles, and who disagree with me.

But you seem to be happy, trying to visit these pages, with only the worst intentions.

If you were to enter my home with such intentions, please know that I would show you the door.

However, in many ways all these lawsuits, are in fact helping this Organization, that you despise.

Here is southwestern Pennsylvania, there was an uproar when people thought that the United Way, was cutting money from the Boy Scouts Of America, so much much of an uproar, that the United Way issued a press release, to say it wasn't so.As I go around my district, more and more people are happy to donate to the BSA. At times, not because they think so much of the Boy Scouts, but more to show how little they think of the ACLU.

Sir, while I wish you no ill, I would think that your time would be better spent elsewhere.