BSA is dying

[acco40]

Electoral college - rural vs. urban

 

In the USA, the votes are based on population, not geographical size. If the Chicago area contains 50% of the state population, they should get 50% of the "vote." Doesn't matter that the Chicago area is only 1% of the state.

[colomike]

My point is that if (I'm not sure how many)Chicago encompasses 3 Congressional district and 2 CDs are in rural areas, then the 2 rural votes shouldn't be lumped in with Chicago simply because they out numbered the rural areas state wide. Example: I live in CD #4. My district voted 98% Republican. Why should my districts electoral vote be thrown in with the Democrats simply because they can overwelm the overall state vote. I also believe there are several states that do split thier electoral votes by district already.

 

BTW, here in Colorado the state "overall" has gone Republican. Therefore, (in our case) the ruling would loose us a couple of electoral votes.

[OldGreyEagle]

(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[OldGreyEagle]

I love talking about Chicago,

 

Acco,

So, the analogy is that Illinois is a country with Chicago as the urban center. We dont need an electoral collegem we will vote strict popular vote. Because Chicao has the votes, they get the money and the programs. University of Chicago gets funding doubled, Southern Illinois University in Carbondale get halved. The Schools in Chicago get almost all the money, the down states schools get zilch (or close). Chicago becomes a bright shining star in the midst of poverty and squalor. Now people born in Illinois are smart they see whats going on and they all move to Chicago to get in on the action and to be taken care of, and eventually the Chicogoans starve because the infra-structure outside of the Chicago metro-politan area becomes so unusable they cant get food to market. What little food there is as farms have been abandoned because everyone moved to Chicago. As they starve they ask the policians why cant you feed us and the politicans reply, but we gave you everything you asked for...

[SR540Beaver]

The Last Frontier Council in Oklahoma is alive and doing well.

 

2002 Accomplishments

 

Membership grew by 4.0% in traditional membership, 4.1% in Learning for Life, for a 4.0% overall growth in membership. Last Frontier Council membership has increased from 19,782 in 1992 to 35,175 in 2002, a growth of 77.7% during the past ten years.

 

Traditional Units grew 3.8%, Learning for Life groups grew 4.9%, for an overall growth in units and groups of 3.9%. The total number of Last Frontier Council units has grown 74.9% in the past ten years.

 

Quality Units increased in 2002 from 604 to 699, a growth of 15.7%. Quality Units have increased from 44.2% of all units in 1992 to 74.9% of all units in 2002.

 

Last Frontier Council earned the Boy Scouts of America National Quality Council award for the 7th straight year. Eleven LFC districts earned the Quality District recognition.

 

Registered volunteers increased in number by 6.3%

Registered district committee members increased by 11.2%

Registered commissioner staff support increased by over 25

 

The council operated with a balanced operating budget in 2002.

 

The Eagle Scout rank was earned by 247 young men, which is a new one year record in Last Frontier Council, Boy Scouts of America. While the national average of Scouts to earn the rank of Eagle Scout is 2.0%, thanks to you, in 2002 the average was 5.5% in your Last Frontier Council.

 

 

 

[Bob White]

Congratulations kwc57, great job. One correction the national ratio for Eagle scouts is 5%, so you are still above the average (it hasn't been 2% since a decade ago).

BW

[Eagledad]

Hi Bob

Who needs correcting? These are the numbers the Last Frontier Council has been handing out since January. No one is perfect, but it's hard to imagine a Council being that careless. When does National put out their Eagle numbers?

 

Barry

[Eagle74]

Maybe this should be a new thread, but I've been curious for quite awhile about the Eagle percentage numbers. Is there an explanation for the rise from 2% to 5% over the past 10 years or so? Not to say that being in the 5% is still not a significant accomplishment, but I always just wonder about reasons for a statistical change of 150% of any sort in a relatively short time.

[Bob White]

The 5% figure came from a visit from Terry Larson, Director of Boy Scout Advancement, to our Philmont training seminar. It is the highest figure in the 92 year history of the program. This is by no means a low number. The Eagle Scout rank is designed to be a rarity. One reason for the increase is we have had an ovwerall increase in members over the last 10 years.

 

Personally I attribute a portion of it to adult leaders who mistakenly measure the success of their troop program by the number of Eagle Scouts they have, and on the number of troops who misuse the merit badge advancemet program as their primary troop meeting activity.

 

For most of the 70s and 80s the Eagle ratio fluctuated between 2% and 3% as I understand it. In the 90s it grew into the 3%-4% range and in 2002 slightly exceeded 5%.

 

BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Eagledad]

I agree with BW, adults mistakenly measure their success by the advancement method. My personal observation is two factors attribute to the adults change in attitude. Female adult leaders and the BSA introduction of aged based patrols.

 

When I say female, I really mean adults without the youth experience in boy scouts. There are men who fit in that category, but when we open the doors to female leaders, there was a huge influx of adults without youth scouting experience. Those of us with a lot of youth scouting brought took that experience with us into our programs. Much of what we remember is the fun part of scouting, the adventure. It wasnt about getting to first class in one year or getting to be a patrol leader. It was about setting up rabbit traps, fishing and running through the woods. It was about standing around the fire at night telling your deepest secrets, and your deepest fears. Many of us first learned about girls around those campfires from the older scouts. We learned about cars and what made them fast. I remember learning why the P-38 was such a wonderful WWII fighter. I remember the pain of divorce and the joy of winning top patrol. There is nothing like getting up in the morning cooking from the fire. We had Patrol Flags back then, big ones and we protected those flag almost with as much pride as the American flag. Our patrol cheers where loud, and patrol pride was deep.

 

How do you teach such experiences to adults who missed that part of being a boy on a weekend adventure? We adults are self-serving and we tend to look at everything compared to the Jones next door. We work to raise our stature in the world because we have to feed our egos and bank accounts, even to just survive. For those of us who experienced boy scouts as a youth can balance our adult goals with the fun experiences of our boy hood. For those adults who dont have that balance, well they tend to measure the scouting experience with stature. In our adult world, we want to stand the tallest. Those who stand the tallest get the farthest in money and recognition. The Eagle is that golden ring for adults. It gets us into colleges and jobs that we might not get otherwise. If the golden ring makes us stand taller, well then a lot of golden rings make us look all the better.

 

Now dont confuse my observation with not wanting females in scouting, I do. Many of the best leaders are women. I am a character-focused person and women certainly are great role models of character. Our scouts are better men from the examples of our women leaders. But I think we men need to talk more about our youth experience. Our troop has outstanding women leaders, but we talked a lot about the youth Boy Scout experience. Patience, your son will get there, let them first be boys, and then watch them grow. It works all the time, but we need patience.

 

The other reason for the drive for Eagles is the BSA promotion of aged based patrols. New Boy Patrols (NBP), Regular Patrols (RP), and Venture Patrols (VP). While I believe the reasons behind the plan are noble, it forced adults to build a program that peaks between 13 and 14. A new leader only has to look at the SM Handbook or even the Patrol Leaders Handbook to see that scouts are divided into categories now. Join the troop, you stay with your friends for a year and get first class. Join the new patrol for a year or two, and then move to Venture. Its not hard to imagine that if the scout doesnt get Eagle by the time he gets to Venture Patrol, that it will be a up hill battle of time. Add the rumors of the three Gs Gas, Girls and Girls, its no wonder the adults get nervous. So the adult starts to focus on the 14-year age. After that, they will just do what it takes to keep the scouts, but at least he is an Eagle. Its rare now to hear a SM talk about his program in terms of loosing scouts at age 18. There is a rumor that the BSA is doing this on purpose to eventually change the troop program to be 10 to 14 year olds. But Ive only heard that rumor from Venturing adults. I hope not, that will destroy the boy run program.

 

These two reasons are what I have observed encouraging an Eagle driven program and raise Eagle numbers. I think things are changing. We have two new female scoutmasters that I know pretty well. They both followed that one year first class program and Eagle to 14 plan when they started a few years ago, now they both want to do it differently. I think they will have as many Eagles as before, but this time they want to build those Eagles from the inside out. Today, my glass is half full.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

 

[OldGreyEagle]

If adult leaders are not sharing their youth adventures around a campfire, I think thats the adult leaders problem, not the programs. And I wouldnt be surprised if your young scouts are still learning about girls from the older guys, just happens you dont see/hear it. As far as talking about cars, it was a lot easier to grasp the concept of a four barrel holly carburator sitting on a 440 cunic inch engine with twin over-head cams and dual exhaust riding on a jacked up 4:11 gear with Mickey Thompsons than it is to comprehend micro-processor assisted fuel injection with a nitrous-oxide boost system. It also didnt hurt most older scouts with cars could work on them themselves, a rarity today (but I digress, I loved the Charger in Fast and the Furious and the GTO in Triple X)

 

We have become a goal/results oriented society, why are the sports programs so intense these days? WHy do coaches threaten kids if they miss a practice, let alone a game? Because of the desire/need/compulsion to win, to be the best, to excell. Why wouldnt that same attitude crossover into scouts? If there are ranks to earn, you go earn them, I can see why the number of Eagles has grown if only based on those societal changes. Then add in those adults who use the program as an Ego boost, trying to instill self worth by "awarding" ranks in an asmebly line fashion (or so I hear). Its not a surprise Eagle numbers are up.

 

Now, as I remember somewhere in my dark and long and mouldering past, if you see a problem and want to talk about it, you should also have a suggesiton for solving it.

 

First off, make it a tradition that at every campfire every adult leader with scouting experience say something about how it was in the "good ol'days".

Encourage the scouts to talk about the most fun they ever had, have them explain the activity, listen close, you may come up with some program ideas. Suggest the best ideas get submitted to the PLC. If your patrols dont have flags, have a patrol flag competion, do the same with cheers. Have a scout MC the campfire and have him start songs the adults know, it may take awhile, but the kids will catch on. Recite poetry, stand on your head, do something.

 

There is an old scoutmaster I know, his favorite saying is "we are in the business of making memories, let them be great one". If you dont think your program is producing great memories, start!(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[mk9750]

Can I just put my head in the sand and pretend I didn't see this new statistic (5%)? I don't want it to be true! Oh well, I guess the bell can't be unrung.

 

I see nothing in the program that causes the increase except possibly the 1st Class / first year emphasis. It seems to move the time table of everything that comes after it up too much, and incrementally. I see rank requirement as really aquiring basic skills, and these should be learned rather quickly. But as I understand it, BP set his highest rank originally at 1st Class, representing the "all 'round perfect Scout". We've modified that over the years, adding Star, Life and Eagle, but I think it a mistake to have reduced the importance of 1st Class by promoting its attainment within a year. Most boys (maybe I should say the average boy) can't possibly learn all these skills well enough to approach being "perfect" at them in one year. So to make it happen, I think many Troops ease the standards to pass IMO. As an example, demonstrating how a compass works and how to orient a map could be done in a meeting room and allow the requirement to be signed. I'd like to believe however, that there is no way a boy can demostrate his ability to use this skill properly unless he does so outside, probably during a hike. Doing it indoors allows for any individual boy to get this done at any time he wants and can find someone to let him show it. But asking him to demonstrate real proficiencly at it takes a much greater commitment on his, and his tester's part. could this be done quickly, Yes, I guess. Could all of the skills required by learned, practiced, and demonstrated (when demonstration is required) in one year? Seems to me that only an exceptional boy, or one that is motivated beyond the average, could do this.

 

In our Troop, only our best 1 - 2 Scouts each year come close to 1st Class / first year. And in reality, they start in @ April, and gear toward 1st Class by summer camp the following year (early August), so it's more like 1st Class first 16 months for our best. Most of the rest get there by the Winter C of H the year after that (join 4/02, a few 1st Class 8/03, most 1st Class by 2/04). From there, the track diverges greatly, although almost all of the 8 (soon to be 9, I hope - my son!) Eagles we have had since I began with the Troop 7 years ago finish Eagle between 17 and 18. And the boys like it that way. Whenever our guys encounter much younger Eagles (14 - 15), they almost always come away feeling that the boy doesn't exibit what Eagle means to them. At JLT, Eagle staff members have to be taught to lash and cook. Few seem to know how to do a presentation, particularly how to prepare one. "Leading" to them seem to be an excersise of their lungs, not their wits. Our experience is that young Eagles are not good Eagles (that is a generalization, but one we believe is mostly true).

 

Our program is set up to provide the young guys the oppurtunity to learn, test and earn all of the rank requirements in their first 18 months. Some do it a little faster, most take a little longer. It also allows for then to work as instructors to the younger guys (improving many skills, including mentoring and the Scout skill itself) for the next 18 months. And both as a part of monthly programs, and seperate from them, the older guys work on common activities that usually lead to MBs (rifelry, Kayaking, Climbing, 1st aid, etc.), and they work on other MBs of their liking on their own. It's a natural progression that has worked very well for us. Even the guys who don't make Eagle are thrilled with the program. We've had a couple of guys transfer out of the Troop because they wanted to advance faster. Although we would never prevent this, we refused to aid it by changing the overall program to make it happen. We've found out in every case that it was a parent who wasn't patient enough to allow their son to go through the complete program. And every boy who transfered has said after they made Eagle they think is was a mistake to transfer from where they were having fun and seeing progress.

 

Well, another long one! I hope that everyone attributes my long windedness to passion, and not just being a blowhard! But to steal a line from someone who is quickly becoming my friend (at least on line), "I love this Scouting stuff! (I promise - That's the last time I'll steal it!).

 

Mark

[sctmom]

Comment about the adults pushing for Eagle and adults who have youth scouting experience-- in my limited experience, many of those adults pushing for their son to be Eagle are the adults who WERE in scouting and didn't make Eagle.

 

Our society does base so much on being best, earning all, getting all. Watch TV commercials, it's about "having it all".

 

I read a book a couple of years ago that said the men think of the only success being if you make it to the top. Now, I know some women also think this but it happens more in men. Maybe society, maybe a difference in our brains. Just trying and doing your best isn't good enough, you must be THE BEST! You must WIN!!!

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I am so confused!!!

 

I always thought First Class First Year was a program that troops follow to assure that all the requirements that a scout must complete for First Class are offered by the Troop during the scouts first year, so that if the scout attended the scheduled events, the scout COULD be first class in a year.

 

I do not remember seeing anything that remotely says that the Scouts MUST be first class in a year, or that the troop is a bad one if the acouts are not first class in a year, only that the opportunity to be first class in a year is presented.

 

Now we could go off and say that if the scouts dont attend events, then perhaps the events need to be more interesting, and thats true. If a scout has other "comittements" and doest go on events,its not up to the troop to rush through reuirements for him.

 

The First Class First year Program is not to blame for signing off requirements if the skill is not learned or the events not attended. It is not to be the whipping boy for "forced" or "adult lead" advancement.

 

BSA statistics show boys who make first class in the first year are much more likely to be retained as scouts but that doesnt mean you advance somebody just to advance them. All that does is teach the kids who worked to earn their ranks that they were saps.

 

Just maybe, because some troops follow First Class First Year more scouts are staying longer in scouting and therefore more scouts earn Eagle. If so, thats great as long as proper advancement methods are used and the skills are learned.

[Eagledad]

>>Now, as I remember somewhere in my dark and long and mouldering past, if you see a problem and want to talk about it, you should also have a suggesiton for solving it.