BSA is dying

[SR540Beaver]

Hey KS, put me down for several boxes! But you have to pay the postage!

[Zahnada]

I believe Hanaski stated it best. BSA is not advancing. They are not changing or growing as our current culture demands. Once again, I'm not calling for a reversal of the gay decision. That would cripple scouts. Instead, I think it's time for BSA to look at its program, policy, and interactions among society and think of developing change.

 

I'm not talking about anything radical here. But it's time to adjust. Boy Scouts needs to open its doors to the people and explain what it is that we're about. That message is being lost. What do advertisements look like? It's always a boy in front of an American flag, wearing full uniform and saluting. Such patriotic displays are important, but they do not tell the whole story. BSA should be improving and marketing their leadership camps (since they do have probably the largest and most active youth leadership program in the nation). Their ads should be showing more camping, climbing, horse riding, and other "cool" activities.

 

This is where public relations have failed. This is where BSA is dying. They're hoping that their old image carries them through the current problems. Instead, the image has gone from moral patriots to mindless, conservative, anamatronic, little army men. Now, naturally, the controversy is young and the transformation is not complete, but I cannot believe that many of you are not seeing this problem developing.

 

I read somewhere on this forum that the Eagle Scout color guard was booed at the Democratic convention. That should be a red flag! I know it's in a very liberal part of the country, but never forget the impact of Hollywood and the media.

 

Boy Scouts has not been out repairing broken bridges and making the country realize the value of the program. Instead, they have been heaped in issues and politics and the true use of scouts is being lost.

 

In regards to media coverage, which is being seen more by the public: the wonderful experience that Boy Scouts has to offer, or the controversy with gays and atheists? BSA needs to shift that spotlight elsewhere if it wants to save itself. Right now, the organization survives on a good name and on the faith that people have put into it. But this view that, "Zahnada is just blowing this out of proportion" and "People will always know how great we are" is just allowing the attacks to come with no response.

 

BSA needs to change if it wants to survive. Not policy, but marketing and program. I think leadership camps are the key personally, but that's a whole different issue.

[littlebillie]

I wonder - as far as spin goes - if the BSA (exec) could somehow allow chartering groups to sponsor both BSA (youth) and Learning for Life groups to join together in a kind of joint-activities w/separate memberships. Just a thought, and of course the devil's in the details, but it COULD cover a lot of issues...?

[littlebillie]

Mark, thanks for the reminder. I get a little strident, I guess - and it helps to step back, exhale, and remind everyone that I am NOT someone who wants to see Scouting destroyed (tho' some'll surely disagree w/THAT :-)

 

It's a fine organization, and it has done a lot of great things - but I think there are populations of kids out there who may need the program more than most - and yet are turned away.

 

And it just doesn't sit right.

 

(hmmm.

 

Say, ok - instead of leaving the membership issue to the local level and the chartering organizations, how about putting it at the state level? A State executive body that sits over the councils and under Exec? Again, it's an unfleshed out thought, but - any takers?)

 

Anyway - thanks.

 

 

[Eagledad]

>>BSA needs to change if it wants to survive. Not policy, but marketing and program.

[ScoutParent]

Well said, EagleDad!! The troops in our area that are losing membership are the troops that offer a poor program, don't let the boys lead, etc.

 

I recently read that the BSA has had the highest membership growth since WWII. I wouldn't classify that as a dying organization.

[pfann]

If not me, who?

 

If not now, when?

 

I agree with the last post(s) about boring programs. There is another point to consider that is somewhat related to this boring concept;

 

 

It interesting to hear solutions about the BSA image problem...BSA needs PR...BSA needs to change policy...BSA needs to do this or that.

 

 

If we need PR, that can be done at the local level...crews, troops and packs must be active in the community. Show people the good we do. Show them that scouting is not just about gays or atheist issues. Show them that scouting is fun, adventurous and exciting. These things will change perceptions over time.

 

But we must not wait for "BSA" to do it. WE are the BSA.

 

I am in my 30's and know many parents in their 30's and 20's who were in cubs but not boy scouts. Their attitudes that boy scouts were not "cool" I believe is transferred to their children.

 

I am constantly talking about what I do with my sons (cub scouts) and how much fun WE are having. I tell people that I highly recommend scouting every chance I get. I try to show people that I have as much fun as my kids. When popcorn sales were going on I did not merely take the sales sheet in to work, I made sure my oldest son came to work in uniform so he could learn to do the job and others could see his example of what scouting is and how much fun it is.

 

I have had only one person talk to me about anything dealing with BSA and controversial isssues and this was my brother in law. I think he likes to say anything to make me mad (and has been very unsuccessful lately I might add!)

 

I have to go take a calm down pill now I am so excited!

 

If not me, who?

 

If not now, when?

[ScoutNut]

"I wonder - as far as spin goes - if the BSA (exec) could somehow allow chartering groups to sponsor both BSA (youth) and Learning for Life groups to join together in a kind of joint-activities w/separate memberships."

 

I doubt it, the programs are to different. Learning for Life is a classroom based educational program. Exploring, a division of Learning for Life is a worksite education program.

[ScoutNut]

"They're hoping that their old image carries them through the current problems. Instead, the image has gone from moral patriots to mindless, conservative, anamatronic, little army men."

 

You should preface this with "In my opinion". This is definately not a factual statement. I have never, ever heard anyone in my area come even remotely close to depicting the image of a scout that way.

 

"In regards to media coverage, which is being seen more by the public: the wonderful experience that Boy Scouts has to offer, or the controversy with gays and atheists?"

 

The media coverage you refer to is only 2 or 3 stories which are picked up and repeated by those having a slow news day or those looking for something to argue over. What the public sees is the boy next door in his scout uniform collecting food for the area food pantry. What the public sees are all of the area GS, CS, and BS units marching proudly in a local parade. What the public sees is a bunch of Cub Scouts, in uniform, selling popcorn at a local bank, holding doors open, being polite, and talking to people about what they plan on doing with the money they are working so hard for. What the public sees are boys who are having fun, learning and doing service for their community.

 

Sure the politics might be hot news right now, and it certainly gives people something to gossip about. Let's face it, politics, of any sort, is one of people's most favorite subjects to babble about. Just check out some of the areas on this forum!! But what the public sees, and believes in, are boys that are not in gangs and not doing drugs. Boys that they do not have to be afraid of. Boys that they can feel proud of.

 

If this is not the case in your neck of the woods, then you have no one to blame for it but yourselves. Get it in gear and improve your programs, your youth, and your publicity. Blaming the way people in your neighbourhood perceive scouts, on the PR job of some guys in Texas, is unrealistic.

[Bob White]

To want Scouting to change to conform to the morals of the world around us has never been the goal or purpose of scouting. Those scouters that use the methods and ideals of scouting understand that we develop leaders not followers.

 

We do not volunteer our time to develop adults who can be swayed by the noisest opinion, but to come to their own decisions based on the best qualities of adult character and moral foundations. They may not always be the opinions held by the loudest or even the majority but then the majority is not always right, nor are the loudest.

 

The BSA program succeeds when a young person is confronted with difficult choices and makes a good decision based on the character traits and abilities that were learned in scouting. It is not based on the number of members, the number of Eagle Scout ranks awarded, or what the media chooses to report or not report.

 

If you feel the program in your community is not doing what it can to be the best scouting program it can be then step up and make a difference, or step aside and make room for someone who will.

 

Bob White

[Zahnada]

First of all, many have questioned if I have any membership number evidence on my behalf. I just looked at the figures at www.scouting.org and did the math myself. Now, these are only numbers so they probably shouldn't/couldn't generate much discussion, but it may help in my defense. These are the total number of cub scouts, boy scouts, and varsity scouts.

 

1998: 3,195,429

1999: 3,209,366

2000: 3,118,111

2001: 3,049,070

 

So, for percentages, BSA was growing .4%, then the Supreme Court came around and we lost 2.8% (which isn't horrible considering the position BSA was in), then in 2001 we lost another 2.2% (which is probably less of a decrease than it could have been if not for the rampant post September 11 patriotism). The numbers for 2002 weren't posted yet. Add to this a population increase of about .89% (CIA World Factbook) and it's 3-4% lost per year. Once again, these are only numbers and most organization have cycles. Just don't tell me that membership is booming.

 

What's just as bad as lost membership is lost funding. Most notably the United Way. This is a national problem more than a local problem when it concerns many large donors. Businesses are thinking twice about giving BSA money because of the controversy and BSA inability to actively defend itself. This type of lost funding has not had much of an affect on program yet, but I think the reprocussions will be felt in the next 5-10 years. Once scouting needs to be cut back at the local level, then the impact on the boys will be noticable.

 

And I agree with what the last few posts have said. The local level and the troop and patrol level is where scouting occurs. I'm sorry that because I'm pessimistic you have felt the need to attack not only my council, my troop, but also my convictions to the program. I take personal offense to comments that say I don't really care or I would be doing more, because basically, you don't know what I do.

 

But I still feel that this issue involves all of Boy Scouts. While the local level is the place to fix the situation, the national level is where the issues were created and they need to do more damage control. They need to defend their positions with more eloquence and turn the focus to other areas of Boy Scouts.

 

This turns me to another program aspect that I feel very strongly about. Leadership. While this strays from the topic, and you will undoubtedly hear more from me about this, I feel the leadership program is the most central and the most overlooked aspect of scouting. It's what truly separates us from every other youth organization. Due to liability, bettering camping and outdoor activity can be found with other organizations (not to say that BSA's outdoors still isn't one of the strongest in the country). Other groups offer discipline and morals. I challenge anyone to find a group that offers as much leadership opportunity as Boy Scouts. This is why I feel the curriculum for JLTC needs to be reworked and why it should become a primary focus for Boy Scouts.

 

Sorry if I went off subject for a moment. Keep your eyes posted in other forums for more.

[Bob White]

Zahnada,

If membership numbers are what determines the success of the scouting movement to you then I have good news.

I was in Dallas the last few days and got a chance to stop at the national council office for the first time. At the reception desk there was a flyer with the current membership figures.

 

As of December 31, 2002 the BSA had 3,326,555 youth in traditional scouting (I believe that is a growth of nearly 300,000 youth since last year). They were led by 1,230,253 adult volunteers in the traditional programs. They were supported by 4,209 professionals and scouting employees. Add in Learning For Life members and leaders and you will have a total of over 6,330,000 youth and adults in scouting.

 

Now if you would allow me to approximate that about 1/3 of the US population of about 300 million are not eligible to be members due to being boys under 7, girls under 14 or because of a lack of religious duty or ineligble due to sexual preferences that would leave about 200,000,000 eligible members. So about one of every thirty people in this country are CURRENTLY in scouting. That does not even take into consideration the millions that have been scouts that are still alive and participating in other ways in their communities.

 

So you see the program is doing just fine thank you for your concern.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[pfann]

Zahnada,

 

I don't speak for others but in my post I did not intend to single out you, your troop, council, district, etc. I was merely speaking from my experience which has been great.

 

You bring up some good points, it is just when I think about this topic I am reminded of something former U.S. House of Representatives Speaker of the House Tip O'Neil once said, "all politics are local."

 

My point is that many positive things can be accomlished at the local level no matter what happens at National.

 

Keep on Scoutin,

pfann

[Eagledad]

OK, the numbers can look concerning if you look at small part of the picture, and I am glad you bring the concern to the front. But homosexuality and activism are confusing to some. Enough so that some feel there are part of bad guys. This discussion was taking on two lives, what should the BSA do to marketing itself and why doesnt the BSA let those people in. I look forward to civil discussions in the future because I am very comfortable with our program. I am the JLT coordinator of our Council and I cant wait to have dialogue about JLTC because we turned it upside-down and I think you will enjoy hearing about it. But for my part on this thread, there are few other things I have observed that could make a difference.

 

Over half of the Webelos in scouting dont crossover into troops. How much would I increase our program if I could grab another 25% of those scouts?

 

The largest loss of boys in troops occurs in their first six months of troop experience. That is a lot.

 

We are really lousy with the older boy program and I think getting worse. I have a lot of respect for the leaders of our program, but I dont think they understand the problem. If I could teach units to develop their program so that keep at least 50 of their scouts until they were lets say 17 how much better would that be.

 

So what does all this mean, well two things for me? First if we are going to continually discuss gays in or out of scouting, we have to get the facts right. And if we are to market our program better, we have to start teaching the adults to do a better job. The first is a challenge because there are a lot of well-financed activist out there determined to force change on the BSA. The other we have immediate control over and this forum has so much power. Imagine, a place were we can each work together to improve our program. A place where we can act civil within the boundaries of the Scout Law and Oath. I have attended other forums and I know by the letters I receive that we can make a difference.

 

So forgive me if I seem to make your awareness of the marketing problem seem small, it is not. But, I hope to encourage you to know that this one small group can push scouting to what Bob White described, a program where our sons can develop to make difficult decisions based from the character traits and habits learned in scouting. There are no other organizations that do as well as us.

 

I dont believe in luck or coincidence, so I believe all of you have been chosen to be here. I honor you taking on the responsibility and helping my son.

 

So yes, lets raise the concerns, but lets not forget the possibilities.

 

I love this Scouting Stuff.

 

Barry

 

Where do we talk about that JLTC stuff?

 

[Hanaski]

Eagledad, kudos to your comments.

 

Scout retention is a huge issue, and it always has been. I too have seen the lack of crossover from packs to troops.

 

Personally, I would like to see a Youth Training category (to counter the Woodbadge category) to best facilitate JLTC and other youth-related training discussion.

 

It seems that JLTC has been experimented with at the local level, but I feel change would be most helpful at national, to serve the needs of JLTC coordinators who, understandably, don't have the time or energy to turn their program upside-down.

 

On the same token, pushing much of the marketing burden on local councils is somewhat extreme. The national council has far more personnel and financial resources than many regional councils, large and small. Asking each council to produce compelling promotional campaigns with no national support wastes time and energy by duplicating efforts at the local level, and in the long run would remain costly and ineffective.

 

To the statement that "all politics is local," indeed you are correct. Unlike many on this forum (apologies for the generalization), my region is populated by a liberal majority, and so far national arguments--the collection "Supporting Values"--have not satisfied their questions. Forcing a strapped council to deal with regional politics is futile.

 

I'd like to conclude my aggregate reply with a comment on Learning for Life. Although an absolutely excellent program for K-12 students, it is purely classroom based and is not traditional Scouting. Numbers of participants are fantastic, but it is misleading to include them in BSA's total youth report--6+ million. See http://www.learning-for-life.org/lfl/index.html for more information.