BSA is dying

[sctmom]

Kwc, where did you read that?

They were working on a badge, that has ONE requirement about coming up with ideas to beat stress SUCH AS bubble baths, listening to music, etc.

 

I hope Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts do NOT merge. Girls have to learn to take care of themselves because we are taught to always put other's needs first, no matter what the cost. Boys aren't taught this. They are taught from day one to look out for themselves first.

 

[littlebillie]

http://www.diversityingirlscouts.org provides a slightly different perspective of the GSUSA

 

Also, please note that the GSUSA web site basically says it's up to the individual to decide if they possess the requisite spiritual nature - some folks spin that as atheist-accepting, and some see it as an invitation to tell a lie if you want to join bad enough.

 

and finally, since the whole sexuality thing is not supposed to be part of a leader's identity in the first place, it's in effect a don't ask/don't tell policy that's never had to be tested the way Dale was. Until the issue is tested in the same was, the comparisons are really apples and oranges.

[Hanaski]

BSA sure isn't alive and well on the grand scale.

 

The NYT article posted by gsmom is on the money. While many youth programs continue to thrive, BSA falls short. There has existed such a practice as horrible parenting for generations. If you choose to say that the BSA's handling of recent political issues doesn't affect unaware youth, you are mistaken. Since when has the focus of BSA centered on adults? Every decision, good and bad, made at the national level directly affects the youth membership of today and tomorrow.

 

Unfortunately, simply relying on the foundation of BSA and the ideals for which it was formed is not enough. Have you visited a troop meeting or summer camp recently? My troop's registration is less than a third of what it has been, and summer camp attendance even less. My troop and council alike are hurting for funds. Have you attended a council JLT program and evaluated its results? The national JLTC curriculum is poorly written, lacks application, exhibits classroom overkill, and worst yet, is modeled after a leadership program specifically targeted to adults. If a university education is so great, why send kids through secondary schools?

 

BSA is lacking with public relations, effective marketing, training standards critical to the success of our youth, and is leaving leaders and parents to carry on anonymous arguments that take us nowhere if national refuses to move forward.

[sctmom]

I'm sitting back and waiting for Ed, Rooster and a few other of our conservative Scouters to jump in here. { smile }

 

[dan]

Zahnada\Hanaski

Do you believe that if BSA allowed avowed (whatever that means ) homosexual leaders and atheists that membership will increase? Or are you suggesting that hire a PR firm to put a positive spin on not allowing them in? I am not sure which way you are leaning.

 

 

[Zahnada]

In response to littlebillie,

 

Yes, "transition" is probably a more appropriate and optimistic term for the situation than "dying." But transitions are turning points. They are times for change. BSA is not handling this transition well at all. Sure the Supreme Court gave BSA the right to choose its membership, but it doesn't mean that we should all be hiding behind that decision. BSA cannot survive if its only action during this "transition" is to say, "Well, the Supreme Court says we're right and that's good enough."

 

They're standing by idle and taking all the blows from several directions. It's just as everyone who argues against my view states. "Scouting is a wonderful organization and it will survive on its merits alone." No! Because it's not actively defending those merits anymore. Public opinion of Scouts continues to worsen.

 

I know many of you don't think that you see the degredation that I'm seeing. Many have stated that the adults don't just stand around and talk about politics in the troop and neither do the boys. That's not the problem. What about when scouting comes up with people who aren't members or have no experience with scouts? What does the conversation often turn to? Controversy. Gay rights. Discrimination. Try it. Go out and find someone who is not active and has never been active in BSA and ask them, "What do you think of Boy Scouts?" Their answer will most likely address the controversy someway.

 

It's all about mental schemas. Scouts and controversy are quickly becoming linked in people's minds and BSA is not solving the problem. This may be the only time that scouts has faced an image crisis. They are in transition and they are handling it very poorly.

[Zahnada]

Dan,

 

I realize that if gays and atheists were allowed (at this time) the backlash would be much worse than it is now. The strongest supporters of scouting (LDS and Catholics) would never allow that and could possibly withdraw enough membership to destroy BSA. I'm not an idealistic liberal. BSA is in a no-win position right now.

 

While hiring PR people to "put a positive spin" on the issue sounds like a cheap idea, that is in essence what I think needs to happen. BSA has not articulated and explained their position well at all. They are not defending their actions against the onslaught of attacks that will only get worse. This has been a public relations catastrophy because nobody outside of BSA understands the reasoning behind these decisions. Even in this forum, I have not read a post that makes a compelling argument.

 

[SR540Beaver]

Sctmom,

 

Sorry, I have to disagree with you about boys not being taught to put other's needs first. I learned first hand from my own Dad, God rest his wonderful soul. While I may not have appreciated it as a kid, the older I got, the more I realized that my Dad's life was not his own. Everything he did, he did for our family. I remember asking him as a kid if he liked his job. He answered by telling me, "Son, I have to like my job." He didn't have a choice. To put a roof over our heads, food in our tummys, clothes and shoes on our bodies and educations in our brains, he worked like a dog to provide for us. He single handedly built a den, bedroom and bathroom onto our house to expand it to fit four kids. He couldn't afford to have a contractor do it. He did everything he did out of love and a sense of resposibility for his wife and kids. He and my Mom sacrificed daily for us kids and for each other. They both taught us that others always come first. That isn't anything exclusive to girls. It is what any responsible parent will teach their children. There are plenty of girls who are raised as little princesses who think the world owes them everything as their are little princes. It is all in the type of parenting done.

[sctmom]

Kwc,

I know I'm not the only one with a martyr of a mother. Speaking generally, women are the ones who keep going when sick, put everyone else's physical and emotional needs ahead of their own. Women run themselves into the ground doing for everyone else. They do more of the housework, even when they holding a paying job (there are stats about this). They are the ones most likely to be up in the night with the children. I could go on and on.

Traditionally men have had things like hunting, fishing, ballgames,etc. to "escape". But women haven't been taught how to "escape".

 

Again, not all people fit this. But it is the general trend.

 

My father worked hard and also rebuilt the house. Did a lot of things himself because of no money to pay someone else. I admire him for that. At the same time, he did put himself first. My mother didn't. She still doesn't. It almost killed her at more than one point in her life.

 

 

[Hanaski]

Dan, the question you ask is a perfect example of the corner BSA has backed itself into. Rather than being the non-issue it used to be, it is now the choice to *actively* allow or *actively* disallow. Aside from turning back time to rewrite their mistakes, national needs to take careful steps to realign its partnerships with United Way and other contributors, while maintaining the strong relationship with the various religious communities that hold Scouting so high.

 

PR extends way beyond sexual preference. An informed media is a happy media; lack of response to public outcry (from any side of any issue) releases the dogs.

[littlebillie]

kwc57, thank you - I hope everyone with good, decent loving parents (or parents who tried their darndest to be) reads your post and takes the time to tell them they love them. don't wait on this folks. never, ever wait on this.

 

 

[scoutldr]

As I see things, the bottom line is this: hundreds (if not thousands) of Scout units are chartered by churches...LDS, Presbyterian, Methodist, etc. Some of these, notably LDS(Mormon) and the United Methodist Church have adopted Scouting as their de facto youth program, and church members are expected to participate. From what I have read elsewhere in this forum entire Councils are allowed to be ruled by these Church groups, to the exclusion of others. If the BSA changes it's stance on gays and atheists, the fallout would be catastrophic, and I'm afraid, insurmountable. So, we're stuck between the proverbial rock and hard place...do we do the right thing and end the discrimination, even though it means pain and suffering? Or do we cave in to the beliefs of a few deep-pocketed sponsors to ensure that the movement continues? Maybe BSA should put it to a vote...should be interesting. Unfortunately, the only ones who get a vote at the table are the CORs...

I also believe the day is coming when BSA won't have a choice...the anti-discrimination laws are spreading. When I reserve a meeting room at the local school, I have to certify that the meeting will be open and non-discriminatory. Now, maybe I'll get a "ban" letter for not being truthful.

[SR540Beaver]

Zahnada,

 

What you are describing isn't anything new or an indictment of BSA. The same could be said of church. There are people that are non-church goers that have a bias against those who do. If you ask them what they think of church, they will say things like, "they are a bunch of hypocritical do-gooders, have a bunch of dos and don'ts, etc." Should the church change their focus and message because people outside of it are not involved and really have no idea of what they are talking about?

 

We live in a PC world today that goes beyond just saying we should show tolerance for gays, atheists, etc. and says we should embrace them and change our organizations to include them. No, we shouldn't. We are what we are and that is why our organization exists. I have a former pastor who is now pastoring a different church in our city. His church has been singled out by a gay/lesbian group who pickets outside his church each Sunday because they want him to recognize their group and give them a voice in setting policies in his church. Now, there are gay/lesbian churches in our city that they can join if they want. Do they? No. There agenda is to force those who disagree with their views to embrace their views. They have a place to goi, but that isn't good enough. They want to make every church a gay/lesbian church. Bizarre!

 

You know, if I want to start a book club and end up with 100 members, I'd have a problem if some of them decided we needed to start reviewing comic books instead. If they don't want to review books, fine.....go start a comic book club. If my membership drops, so what. We are a book club, not a comic book club.

 

Frankly, I like Scouts and I like the program. I don't care how other people view it, that's their problem.

 

I think it is a small minority of people that dislike Scouts. When my son went door to door selling popcorn or when we go to a store while he is in uniform, people always smile and treat him special. They never fail to ask him about scouting, congratulate him or tell him how proud they are of him.

[Eagledad]

>>I also believe the day is coming when BSA won't have a choice...the anti-discrimination laws are spreading.

[KoreaScouter]

I have a son in Boy Scouts and a daughter who's a Junior Girl Scout. I'm not a registered Girl Scout leader (I've thought about it, and they're allowed, but men are restricted in their activities with the GS troops, especially outdoors, which is where I'd want to be, mainly), but I go to most of my daughter's troop meetings with her, help set up camps, have loaned my Scouts to teach the older girls outdoor skills before some of their Wider Ops, will be selling cookies this morning as a matter of fact, and so on.

 

I think the Boy Scout program socializes boys to be men, and the Girl Scout program socializes girls to be women. I've been through my daughter's handbook and badge book with her, and what some see as a feminist or left-leaning message in the program, I see as elements that boost a girl's self-esteem, maintain positive self-images, teach positive values, and get them grounded in real-life skills. My daughter's troop leaders got them started straight away on "Stress Less" (she uses the techniques to deal with her brother, God bless her!), and "It's Important to Me" (personal values).

 

I also think Girl Scouts, the way their troops are organized in age groups (like Cub Scouts), results in smaller troops, closer in age, with a big advantage when it comes to social interaction, shared interests, and so on. That may be helping their recruiting/retention. I'm telling you, it's tough to make the human dynamics work with 11-17 year olds in the same room in a Boy Scout troop. I've got Scouts on campouts who bring teddy bears, and others who are shaving and calling their girlfriends on their cell phones...make that work!

 

GSA has also been way more flexibile and dynamic when it comes to uniforms. Many, many options, some traditional, some modern, and you can order any of them straight off the internet, to your mailbox. Lets girls express themselves a little more individually. Honestly, I think it's cute in my daughter's Girl Scout troop, but I don't think I'd want my Boy Scouts looking like a bunch of contras at a troop meeting...maybe old geezers like me are part of the problem.

 

I'm not Solomon; I don't know how to solve the policy issues without alienating the critics or the CO blocks. I sure hope they figure out a way to do it, though. I'm tired of the controversy and just want to go camping.

 

KS