BSA is dying

[Zahnada]

The Boy Scouts have been pushed into a public relations nightmare. With an already poor marketing campaign, this current string of lawsuits is crippling.

 

I'm not writing this post to start a discussion on BSA's gay policy (which I feel is wrong). It has become apparent to me that their method of dealing with this controversy is horrible. As a result, if nothing changes, I predict that BSA will be a dead organization in 20 years. They will be a shell of the organization that the country respected.

 

While Boy Scouts have never been "cool", it has been respected. Middle school students may have hid their uniforms from their friends, but by the time high school came many boys wished they were Eagles. They respected the diversity that the program offers and realized that being an Eagle Scout is a great addition to any resume because it stands as a symbol for a dedicated and moral person. I was accepted to a good college because my resume was loaded with leadership, community service, employment, and glowing letters of recommendation. This all comes from participation in Boy Scouts.

 

Suddenly, this isn't true anymore. I can see it change by the month. Before, when I would proudly state that I'm an Eagle Scout, I received comments of, "That must have been hard work." and "I wish I had been a scout." Now the comments are, "So you hate gays?" or "Did you hear about the atheist who was kicked out?" It is becoming increasingly less honorable to be a member of this organization.

 

There are many comparisons between the KKK and BSA. At this point, these are ridiculous. However, I can see the gap beginning to close. What BSA once stood for is being forgotten among a swarm of controversy. To many it is perceived as an arrogant group of conservative elitists. In some places, it is already a black mark on a resume to be affiliated with boy scouts. I can only see things getting worse from here.

 

We all know that there are dozens of mothers who are forcing their sons to become Eagles so at the last minute the boy can shout out that he's an atheist. Result? Fame, martyrdom, and a lawsuit for the family. There are boys in scouts right now who are waiting to become Eagles so they can come out of the closet and force BSA's hand. Result? Political statements and more bad PR.

 

The public relations department of the Boy Scouts is doing a terrible job. They have let this run wild and it will continue to worsen until BSA begins to defend itself. To constantly state, "We are a private organization and reserve the right to admit who we want" does not help the situation. It only loses more sponsorships. It only makes more families decide that sports or music would be a better use of time and money for their sons than scouting (which is not to say that sports and music aren't important).

 

BSA needs to begin to eloquently explain their position to the country. As of now, I still have not heard an eloquent explanation of why gays are not allowed except for references to setting a good moral example. But what does that mean? These abstract terms are not explanations. I have yet to hear an argument that would convince any liberal of the value of scouting.

 

It's sad to see such a great organization slowly die. And it's even worse to see that little is being done to save it.

[SR540Beaver]

Zahnada,

 

With all due respect......the sky IS NOT falling!

[Zahnada]

kwc57,

 

I tend to agree that the sky is not falling. My post probably did sound a bit apocalyptic. BSA has endured for many years. It has faced challenges from other youth organizations and has still prevailed as the peak example of boy leadership and morality.

 

And what has allowed the American population to keep such faith in this organization? A good name. A name that stands for all the positive attributes that are desirable in boys. And this good name could not be attacked by anyone.

 

Until now. Every newspaper article is dragging BSA's good name through the mud. People love to see the mighty fall and the media is portraying just that.

 

Now, Boy Scouts has endured all the controversy because of their good name and the faith that its member have in it. But this controversy only became heated a few years ago. Now BSA is a target. It is a target for ultra liberals, for gay rights, for atheists. They are a target and the attacks will keep coming. And if each attack is weathered as they have been in the past, it is only a matter of time before BSA crumbles.

 

Boy Scouts need better public relations. That's what I'm arguing for. I'm sorry, but your view that "the sky is not falling" and that everything will be fine is only making the problem worse. Every organization needs to look to the future and I see a very bleak future 20-30 years from now for BSA. I don't know if my grandchildren will have the benefit of Boy Scouts.

 

Boy Scouts of America is under attack and right now, our defenses are poor.

[slontwovvy]

I most vehemently disagree. I don't know where you live, but I have yet to receive a single comment such as those you are receiving for being an Eagle.

 

Secondly, there is no comparison between the KKK and the BSA.

[sctmom]

I don't agree with the gay policy but I don't see this great attack. I would not dare compare it to the KKK.

 

My son asked the kid next door about being a scout. Yesterday the boy said "my mom said I can't". Come to think of it, this is the response he gave a couple of years ago about Cubs. I think this family is just overly protective about their children. All I said to my son was that some people just think the Scouts do some wrong things and dont' want their children there. I got one of those looks of "what are you talking about?" So, I have a hard time believing most middle school students are concerned about the political issues we all debate. The boys want to have fun and be with friends.

 

The only people who has said anything negative to me about BSA has been my sister and a couple of their friends. They were not rude but stated their objections to BSA. Come to find out they were very misinformed. Most of what they said was based on activities about American Indians that was in Cub Scouting some years ago. They don't begrudge me for being involved.

 

[SR540Beaver]

Sctmom,

 

You know your neighbors better than me, so I may be talking out of turn here. When a kid says, "my parents won't let me" it could mean a variety of things. I know lots of families that are involved in soccer and love it. I know a lot of families who's kids play basketball, baseball and football and would never allow their kid to play a "weenie" sport like soccer. I know other parents who won't let their kids play sports at all because they don't want to spend their time at practice and games or have to help. I can see some people not wanting to get involved in scouts because camping and outdoor stuff is a turn off to them. Or also because they don't want to feel obligated to be personally involved. I know cub scouts is different from boy scouts, but our leadership planned one of our few Webelo campouts around the two major college football teams schedules in order to get maximum participation. There is one weekend in October that both teams didn't have a game, so that was set for our campout. Even then, we only got about 30% participation from the den. I guess what I'm saying is that there are a variety of reasons that "mom and dad said no" that don't necessarily involve politics.

 

Zahnada,

 

Yes the press picks up on the PC special interest groups attacks on private organizations and helps give their cause visibility. I can't count the number of news talk shows that wasted a lot of time on Augusta not allowing women. Eventually these groups may win a victory in making private organizations more PC. Even if they do, the boys wanting to have fun and learn scouting skills and the volunteers who want to teach the kids will remain the same at the grassroots level regardless of the politics involved at the national level. When I go to den and pack meetings, I never hear any discussion about the national, council or district level politics. We are concentrating on the boys and the program. I don't think that will change. Kids could care less about what is being argued in the Supreme Court. They just want to learn how to climb rocks and tie knots.

[sctmom]

KWC,

You are right, I didn't make myself clear. What little I do know about these people, I don't think they disagree with the BSA policy. I think this has nothing to do with BSA policies or politics.

I've yet to have anyone say that is why their child is not involved.

Would be curious who has experienced that.

Maybe some parts of the country, but I doubt it is widespread.

 

[buffalo2]

Think globally - Act locally

 

And consider the concept of 'half full'

[Zahnada]

Certainly the kids don't care about politics and hardly anyone in Cub Scouts even knows the distinction between a homosexual and a heterosexual. The opposition I see isn't coming from the kids. I see the parents as becoming less willing to let their kids join Boy Scouts. Now I admt that this isn't very apparent now, but the once good image of BSA is tarnished. And I don't see them doing anything to remedy that.

 

America is becoming an increasingly accepting place. This acceptance reaches more and more gays and atheists. I'm not opening a debate on scouting policies regarding these issues. But the more that BSA allows the nation to see them as an elitist, conservative, discriminating group, the worse things will get.

 

And I think you over estimate the scouting appeal to youth without the influence of their parents. Scout has never been the "cool" activity. This is especially apparent in middle school where all of life is centered around popularity. I'm seeing parents who are much less willing to encourage their sons to continue in scouting through this rough age.

 

This is probably the roughest period that BSA has ever had to endure. And I don't think they're handling it well at all.

[sctmom]

I see more parents who think that sports is more important than Scouting. I see parents who don't want to take the time to drive their kids to and from Scout meetings. I see parents who don't spend any time with their kids. Parents who don't understand the importance of having a child a group like Scouts. Kids who have so many other choices.

 

I'm sure others can add to this list. Girl Scouts is also dealing with how to get more members, this is not just a BSA thing or a GSUSA thing.

 

I live in a very conservative area of the country and we still don't have many kids in scouts. It's not about the gay issue, it is about ALL KINDS OF REASONS.

 

I didn't even know this was a big issue until I started reading this board. As someone else said, it is not something we all stand around and talk about at meetings.

 

I have a couple of friends who are gay and they aren't happy with the BSA policy but even if they policy is changed, it isn't going to change their lives one bit. They have other things to worry about -- like paying the rent, taking care of family, etc.

 

[berkshirescouter]

Results are more important then politics. When the BSA does not turn out leaders then we are in trouble. My sons troop was at the Naval Academy a few months ago. We were told that they look at results. Eagle scouts start off as 8% of the student population and end up after 4 years at 14%. The only other group that increases like this is National Merit Scholarship winners. This is our strength. Parents who want their children to succeed will be involved.

[littlebillie]

I'm one of those folks in the gray zone between black and white.

 

I'm an ardent supporter of all that is good with Scouting, I am still pround of my Eagle, and I support my son's desire to go through the program all the way. BUT. I think that the gay ban is wrong, and hurtful, and unwise, though I understand it as a liability limitation measure. (Just so you know, I also support gay civil unions)

 

And while I beleive that the Scout's position on religion has greater legitimacy (God and reverence have been in the rituals since the inception), I feel that it also involves Scouting turning its back on some of the kids who need the program most.

 

In short - Scouting is good - it could be better - it's misguided - and it could be GREAT!

 

So.

 

I DON'T want to see it fade away - but I do want to see it open up to all boys. I don't think it should get any kind of preferential treatment or access to public monies or facilities - but neither do I think it should recieve anything less than, say, the Girl Scouts.

 

So - that said, I prefer to think of the BSA as in transition, not dying. The BSA and the GSUSA have been asked by World to look at becoming a joint group - obviously, their spin on certain issues is too far apart just now to allow that.

 

Not dying - just in transition...

 

I hope.

[gsmom]

Here is an article from the Chicago Tribune relevant to this topic:

 

By Lisa W. Foderaro

New York Times News Service

Published January 1, 2003

 

LARCHMONT, N.Y. -- In a chilly cabin here, the ambitious young

suburbanites brainstormed a few weeks back on ways to relieve stress.

The solutions were the usual: bubble baths by candlelight, yoga,

relaxing music, setting limits.

 

"There's nothing wrong with being busy," said Vickie Hage, an

architect in Mamaroneck, N.Y., helping the 4th-graders in Girl Scout

Troop 1839 work on their "stress less" merit badge. "It's much better

to be busy than to not be busy. But you don't want to be so busy that

it makes you cry or it makes you nervous or it makes you mean to your

mom."

 

Being a child in these high-stress, full-scheduled times is not what

it used to be, and, as the stress less badge introduced a year ago

indicates, neither are the Girl Scouts. In fact, while the Boy Scouts

have stumbled from one controversy to another, Girl Scouts locally

and nationally are prospering. National membership in the Girl Scouts

of the USA has hit a 20-year high of 2.8 million, with 11 percent of

all available girls signed on as scouts.

 

The organization is increasingly retaining girls as they enter their

teenage years, a traditional dropout point. It has done so, in part,

by offering rugged adventures like mountain climbing, as well as

internships and travel opportunities. One troop here in Westchester

County recently went to Kenya.

 

But the Girl Scouts have also steered clear of the controversies

surrounding sexual orientation and religion that have dogged the Boy

Scouts of America in recent years. The Boy Scouts' position on

homosexuality--that gay members are not welcome--has cost that

organization funding and members. And Troop leaders say the Girl

Scouts, traditionally known for the three C's of crafts, cookies and

camping, have evolved into a thoroughly modern organization. It has

formed an implicitly feminist message by plugging into contemporary

issues and trends, while maintaining its traditional values.

 

In Westchester and Putnam Counties, for instance, the number of Boy

Scouts has fallen to 9,500 from 13,000 in the last 10 years, a 27

percent decline. During the same period, membership in the

Westchester-Putnam chapter of the Girl Scouts has risen by 24

percent, to 16,500 from 13,300. The chapter also outshines the

national Girl Scouts in terms of market share, with 20 percent of

available girls involved in scouting.

 

Even the Brownies, who are in the 1st through the 3rd grades, are

exposed to a range of subjects. Yes, there are still badges in

puppets and dolls, as well as in manners. But in the last several

years, badges have been added in careers, penny power, computer

smarts, space exploration and math fun.

 

Years ago, there was a badge for 10- to 17-year-olds called matron

housekeeper, which instructed girls in using a vacuum cleaner and

identifying cuts of meat. Its counterpart today is a Ms. Fix-It

badge, for junior Girl Scouts, ages 9 to 11. To earn the badge, girls

need to be able to repair a leaky toilet and replace a broken window

pane, among other things.

 

"If you define feminism as a girl being strong-minded and independent

and making decisions for herself, then yes, it's feminism," said Mary

T. Stroock, chief executive for Girl Scouts of Westchester Putnam

Inc. "But I don't think that's necessarily feminism. I think it's

just life now."

 

Staying current

 

An example of how the organization has tried to stay current was the

creation of a Girl Scout Research Institute three years ago at its

headquarters in Manhattan. The institute conducts its own research

and pulls together existing studies to help Girl Scouts of the USA

plan for the future. One study, Teens Before Their Time, looked at

the pressures on girls to act and look older than they are.

 

Other research has shown the extent to which the older girls in

scouting are particularly interested in career development. Harriet

Fier, a filmmaker who leads a Girl Scout troop in Chappaqua, N.Y.,

says that as the girls reach middle school and high school, there is

a career component to almost everything they do.

 

Fier's own family illustrates the shifting fortunes of the Girl

Scouts and Boy Scouts in Westchester and Putnam. Her 12-year-old

daughter, Laura Mantell, has been active in Girl Scouts since

kindergarten. Her son, Will, on the other hand, left the Boy Scouts

two years ago, at age 8, when the Boy Scouts' decision to exclude

gays was making front-page headlines.

 

Jack L. Sears, scout executive of the Westchester-Putnam Council of

Boy Scouts of America, attributes the decline in membership less to

any opposition over the group's policies than to a loss of funding.

Responding to the Boy Scouts' position on homosexuality, the United

Way of Westchester and Putnam stopped its annual contribution of

$150,000; corporate support has also eroded.

 

"If we had the financial resources to get the message out, we would

have a lot more members joining," Sears said. "If we want to embrace

diversity, we have to embrace the right to associate."

 

For its part, the Girl Scouts do not prohibit lesbians from becoming

members or leaders. Whether heterosexual or homosexual, members and

leaders may not promote a particular sexual orientation or display

any sexual behavior.

 

As for religion, a member can substitute her own word for God in the

Girl Scout promise. If a girl were an atheist but was still

comfortable reciting the Girl Scout promise, the organization "would

not conduct an inquisition about what was behind that," said Sharon

Woods Hussey, senior vice president of membership, program and

research for Girls Scouts of the USA.

 

In November, the Boy Scouts ejected an Eagle Scout after he had

proclaimed himself an atheist. Even some Boy Scout leaders in

Westchester wish their organization acted more like the Girl Scouts

with regard to a scout's sexual orientation or religion.

 

"Both of those issues were poorly handled and the Girl Scouts, to

their credit, took a very different view and very different

position," said William H. Flank, a professor of chemistry and

environmental science at Pace University and a scoutmaster in

Chappaqua. "They don't discriminate, period, and I wish the BSA would

do the same."

 

The Girl Scouts' national organization has analyzed ZIP codes to make

sure they are attracting girls from all socioeconomic backgrounds and

has studied its existing membership rolls with an eye toward racial

and ethnic diversity.

 

There is a new push to attract Hispanic girls, who are not

participating at the same rate as white and black girls. Similarly,

the Girl Scouts have just started an initiative, with a grant from

the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development, to introduce

scouting to girls living in housing projects.

 

The Girl Scouts reached their peak of popularity during the Baby Boom

years of 1947 to 1955, when 12.5 percent of American girls were

involved. Through the 1970s and mid-1980s, the "market share," as

Girl Scout officials put it, dipped to 10 percent. But it has since

picked up and has hovered around 11 percent in recent years.

 

Fresh air and service

 

The organization was founded in 1912 by Juliette Gordon Low, who

believed all girls should be given the opportunity to develop

physically, mentally and spiritually. From the start, the Girl Scouts

sought to get girls out of their isolated home environments and into

community service and the open air.

 

Community service and the great outdoors still figure prominently in

Girl Scouts. Recently, a troop in Briarcliff Manor, N.Y., was

frantically looking for a way to pay a $1,500 shipping charge for a

wheelchair and holiday gifts for a 6-year-old girl in Ecuador who can

neither walk nor talk. The girl is related to the housekeeper of the

troop leader, Diane Newman Kahn. The troop decided to use the money

they had raised selling cookies to buy a high-tech, collapsible

wheelchair for the Ecuadorian girl, whose family cannot afford one.

 

Troop 1366, in Putnam County, was getting ready for the annual

Klondike Derby, a winter survival exercise set to take place this

month at the Girl Scouts' own 100-acre Rock Hill Camp.

 

At a recent troop meeting, the girls practiced building fires

outdoors and erecting a shelter, using only a tarp and trees. They

will also have to demonstrate their knowledge of first aid, as well

as their ability to signal for help using SOS flags.

 

With two daughters in Girls Scouts, Liz Rau leads two troops: 1366

and 2177. Both are preparing for the Klondike. Rau was a Girl Scout

herself; she left at the start of 9th grade. "I quit because of the

stigma of being in Girl Scouts," she said.

 

Her own daughters, Theresa, 13, and Patricia, 15, have no plans to

leave. Patricia is admittedly a bit self-conscious about being a Girl

Scout now that she is 15. But she is determined to remain in scouting

through the end of high school, and she has set two goals: to take an

overseas trip with her troop, and to earn the Gold Award, the

equivalent of the boys' Eagle Scout honor.

 

As for the lingering social stigma, Patricia said she doesn't

broadcast her participation. But the Girl Scouts' main fundraising

vehicle--the cookies--have made her popular in school, at least among

the boys.

 

"It's not cool," she said of the Girl Scouts, "but it's accepted.

Guys know you have cookies, and guys like food."

 

 

Copyright 2002, Chicago Tribune

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

Wow! A badge for a day at the spa! No wonder their enrollment is up. Maybe the BSA should make a badge for PlayStation? I'm sure we could get a lot more boys.

[mk9750]

littlebillie,

 

I am glad that you posted this. I have always read into your posts on the topic that you were somewhat hateful of Scouting, at least with regard to this topic. I think I see now that you are a Scout supporter, just not about this issue. Knowing that allows me to give your comments a little more respect than perhaps I was.

 

Stripped to the bones, Scouting will always be relevant and vital. It has too much to offer, and too many people who know that, to die. Our task is to continue to expand those who know of its value and importance.

 

Seems to me, that just like the baby boomers and echo boomers, Scouting is cyclic too. I remember during the 70's when I was a teen, Scouting's reputation among boys in my area was very weak. Few boys participated. They are parents now, and are helping their children make choices. In addition to the increase in choices available, I'm sure a certain percentage steer their kids away from Scouts because of their negetive opinion formed in their youth. But other time's, the rolls have bulged (in our area, we just finished a 9 or 10 year run of increasing membership). I'll bet in 16 - 24 years, these young people will help guide their children toward Scouting. In the meantime, we all have to work to spread the news about Scouting.

 

The original post I think was way too overblown, but I think it makes a valid point. We at the local level, who can really do good in spreading the word, are hampered by these national political issues that involve Scouting. Scouting should be more agressive defending its position (in my view), or in reviewing it critically (in the view of the other side of the arguement). But they have to help, not hurt our efforts.

 

Mark