War with Iraq

[OldGreyEagle]

So during this weekend I was watching a few older scouts helping a group of new scouts learn knots. They did Square, Taut Line Hitch, Clove Hitch and the rest. When they where done, I showed them how to tie the infamous bowline on a bight, or the French bowline to which a scout said, dont you mean Freedom Bowline?

 

And thus a new term in born...

[packsaddle]

Joni4TA, I am curious...I thought that ALL government spending (100%)was for the benefit of the public in some form or other. And that we, collectively as a people, approve of these expenditures by means of our election of our representatives who appropriate the funds and determine their use. Or are you suggesting that expending government funds for personal or private gain would somehow be better than for public benefit?

 

OGE, quick question..do your boys have the same short memories for those knots that mine have? If so, what is your method for getting them to remember them over the long haul. I just seem to have to repeat the lesson..in games..in contests...in advancement exercises. I don't mind but I sure would like to know the trick for getting them to remember.

 

I suppose we are now (Oh boy!) engaging in a new national pastime of insulting the French. Few did it better than Mark Twain. Those so inclined may visit http://www.twainquotes.com/French.html for some of Twain's better ones. Bon apetite!

However, I would like to remind everyone that this activity (while somewhat harmless) is also somewhat childish and hardly covers us with glory. It probably also violates the Scout Law. It certainly doesn't help open and honest exchange of ideas.

[OldGreyEagle]

Ahhh, Packsaddle, To keep things more or less on topic, see the thread in the Programs section "Not Knots"

[Joni4TA]

packsaddle, So did you actually have a legitimate question or were you just provoking me to elaborate on the facts I gave?

re: question #1- yeah of course ALL (100%) of government spending is supposed to be for the benefit of the public.

question #2- Yes, we vote for and approve tax spending.....

and what else did you ask??? Ahhh, yes....

question #3- no I do not suggest that expending government funds for personal or private gain would somehow be better than for public benefit.

 

Where the heck did you come up with these questions? Did I say I agreed or disagreed with the FACTS I stated in my post?

 

In fact my post was in response to those on the board who felt like we spent MORE on National DEFENSE (Meaning the MILITARY, which during war time and war protests, those who protest most certainly do not believe the National Defense and military spending is FOR THEIR PUBLIC BENEFIT!) than on anything else in the country, to include social welfare (and by Social Welfare I mean food stamps, welfare checks, social security, HUD housing, county assistance payments, etc.).... that belief is simply not true, and that's all I was saying. The truth of the matter is that National Defense (at 19% of the Fed. Govt's income *which mainly comes from taxes*) ranks #2 out of 5 in what Fed. gov't. spends, however makes up less than half of our #1 expenditure, which is INCOME SECURITY (50%)!

 

National Defense ranks 5% above "other", 6% above Interest payments and 15% above Health and Education.

 

I am not giving an opinion on this at all, these are just the facts, sir!

[packsaddle]

Joni4TA, quite right. I should have read back for the origin of your message (hard to do from the road and a glacially slow connection). I was wondering how this related to 'war with Iraq' and figured it out after I sent my message. There have been some others who went through all these numbers to make various points about one issue or other and I wasn't sure why you were going through all this again. Clear now, though. Thanks also for not hitting me with the old "just the facts, M'am" thing...I wasn't trying to provoke, just to understand (rest of you stop laughing). I hope all you guys are doing well over there.

 

OGE,right so, thanks.

[saltheart]

OK, this thread probably didn't need rescusitation (sp?), but I can hardly contain myself. Reports today indicate the the heavy combat is coming to an end...or so they say. And, we heard from our son tonight that he's finally heard from our grandson...the Eagle Scout...the Marine...in Iraq. He's doing well, and expects that he'll be there for a while, but has been able to keep his head down when necessary, and up when called for. He has one very proud father (Marine) and one very proud grandfather (Airborne Ranger) waiting for his return.

 

Here's a not so subtle "HURRAH" for the men and women serving in our military everywhere, and doing one hell of a grand job at it, too. And here's a not so subtle "HURRAH" for those men and women in the Boy Scouts of America who daily show the way for our sons and grandsons, that they too might become the very best Americans they can be....military or not.

 

 

HURRAH!!!!!

[packsaddle]

Saltheart, I'm with you completely. I too hope for his quick safe return and for similar return for all of his fellow soldiers.

[KoreaScouter]

 

 

http://www.pressaprint.com/som/wesupportu.htm

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Just a bump to an old post, notice the respect and civility shown towards the president

[OldGreyEagle]

Just a bump to an old post, notice the respect and civility shown towards the president

[packsaddle]

OGE, thanks for bringing this back to life. I've been camping all weekend through a continuous downpour. It was actually wonderful, the sound of the rain coming through my leaky fly, the feeling of hundreds of acorns poking up through the bottom of my tent into my back, the satisfying squish of a wet sleeping bag. But the water was warm enough not to harm anything and I slept and ate well and loved every moment. I do need to get a new rainfly though.

 

I found my original post from this thread, from back in 30 January 2003:

"mk9750, I share your concern for your Eagles. My son and several of my old scouts are among that group. However, I do not, under any circumstance, see a return to the draft. Therefore I see any involvement by them as voluntary.

 

I agree with President Bush (nice speech by the way) that if Saddam is not evil, then evil has no meaning. If given the opportunity I would personally extinguish Saddam without hesitation. I would feel guilty afterward. I would live with it.

 

But I share fears that our government has not planned this well. I see the possibility that we could strike quickly and succeed, only to be buried in 'nationbuilding'. I see that we could be doing this just for 'the old man'. I tend to share NJ's and KWC57's hesitation. Something is not 'right' about the way this has developed. If we cleanly eliminated Saddam and his government without losing a single life, our country would still be as vulnerable to terrorism as it is now. And there are plenty of other evil guys out there to fill the gap.

Rooster's list is accurate. But it also applies to other countries past and present. Saddam is no Hitler.

 

We don't hit NK because it already has nuke material - dirty hit, too much risk, resolution still possible through diplomacy. Once Iraq gets it, they will graduate to that status as well. They will be in the club like it or not, Saddam or not. The real power of having a nuke comes from not using it, from having it as a threat. And knowing that its use would essentially be 'the end' is the greatest reason not to use it. Saddam is not suicidal.

The other weapons, chemical and biological, are just too easy to reproduce by anyone. I will not be surprised if the Anthrax letters, for example, were manufactured inside this country or mailed by a citizen. We are not and never have been 'secure'. Our society is open and most of us (I hope) would not sacrifice the freedoms necessary to close it. Security is, as it always has been, an illusion. I'll live with that too."

 

In retrospect, I just feel deep sadness. I miss littlebillie and NJCubscouter.

[Gunny2862]

What's odd to me is that for the first time since we put troops on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan, I didn't know that I personally knew someone(anyone)who was there for about 10 days this month.

I again, as of this writing, have friends and acquaintances on the ground.