War with Iraq

[SR540Beaver]

What do we know about Saddam? We know he is a petty little tyrant who is paranoid. He won't sleep in the same bed two nights in a row. No one ever knows where he is at any time. He has had men surgically enhanced to use as doubles. He has his chef's children taste his food to avoid poisoning. Why odes he take all of these extreme measures. Out of fear for his own life by his own people. Outsiders are not allowed in. Saddam cares about one thing only, himself, his power and his legacy. He is secular and only plays at Islam for appearances sake. Terrorists are Islamic radicals who probably hate him worse than we do. He isn't a martyr, he is a survivor. He keeps a pretty low profile. He has no interest in death. In fact, it is his greatest fear. Why would a man with that kind of profile have any desire to threaten the greatest military power on Earth?

 

Is he a horrible excuse of a person who the world would be better off without? Yes. Is a a daily threat to his own people? Yes. Do I lose sleep at night afraid that he is a threat to the US national security? No! Do I worry about all of those radical terrorists out there who want to martyr themselves for Allah? Yes!

 

We have much bigger fish to fry than Saddam. I agree, how did he get to the top of the list when there are much greater threats to our security?

[hops_scout]

NJ,

You asked how Saddam got to the top of the list:

Let's think about this one; Saddam has been found making WMD hasnt he? He has been interested in a nuke for a while. He cant even sleep in the same place two nights in a row. We dont know where he is, what he is doing, and other things. I bet we do know where the head of North Korea is and I bet we do know what he is doing for the most part. Also, about other terrorists, I bet they are towards the top of the list. The War on Terror will become a long, world wide mission. It takes the cooperation of all governments. Saddam having a link to Al Quaeda is very bad.

[packsaddle]

mk9750, I share your concern for your Eagles. My son and several of my old scouts are among that group. However, I do not, under any circumstance, see a return to the draft. Therefore I see any involvement by them as voluntary.

 

I agree with President Bush (nice speech by the way) that if Saddam is not evil, then evil has no meaning. If given the opportunity I would personally extinguish Saddam without hesitation. I would feel guilty afterwards. I would live with it.

 

But I share fears that our government has not planned this well. I see the possibility that we could strike quickly and succeed, only to be buried in 'nationbuilding'. I see that we could be doing this just for 'the old man'. I tend to share NJ's and KWC57's hesitation. Something is not 'right' about the way this has developed. If we cleanly eliminated Saddam and his government without losing a single life, our country would still be as vulnerable to terrorism as it is now. And there are plenty of other evil guys out there to fill the gap.

Rooster's list is accurate. But it also applies to other countries past and present. Saddam is no Hitler.

 

We don't hit NK because it already has nuke material - dirty hit, too much risk, resolution still possible through diplomacy. Once Iraq gets it, they will graduate to that status as well. They will be in the club like it or not, Saddam or not. The real power of having a nuke comes from not using it, from having it as a threat. And knowing that its use would essentially be 'the end' is the greatest reason not to use it. Saddam is not suicidal.

The other weapons, chemical and biological, are just too easy to reproduce by anyone. I will not be surprised if the Anthrax letters, for example, were manufactured inside this country or mailed by a citizen. We are not and never have been 'secure'. Our society is open and most of us (I hope) would not sacrifice the freedoms necessary to close it. Security is, as it always has been, an illusion. I'll live with that too.

[Bryan]

Let's review.

 

The Hussein regime tortures political dissidents and their families to death. Children are tortured to death in front of their parents to extract confessions.

 

Imagine the outrage if George W. Bush did this to the anti-war protesters and their families.

 

The Hussein regime has used chemical weapons in genocidal attacks against the Kurdish and Shiite minorities. Thousands of defenseless men, women and children have died horrible deaths.

 

Think of the screams from around the world if George W. Bush did the same to African-Americans and Hispanics.

 

Instead of using his riches to provide for Iraqi civilians who are suffering due to the sanctions, Hussein has given $25,000 rewards to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. He paid $2 billion to Muammar Khaddafy of Libya, to provide safe asylum for his family and his most loyal followers when the coming war is lost. And he has spent billions on the most extravagant palaces in the world.

 

He has waged wars of aggression against neighboring countries. He threatens the oil supply upon which the entire industrialized world depends.

 

He has been in continuous defiance of several UN reolutions and the 1991 cease-fire. Gentlemen of military backgrounds, when a cease-fire is violated, what is the appropriate response?

[SR540Beaver]

Bryan,

 

Each item you listed is basically true. Saddam is an evil man deserving of death. Now, of all of the evidence you listed, which one has anything to do with the US national security? That he tortures his own people? That he has gassed his own people? That he has fought wars of agression with a couple of his neighboring countries? All of these involve issues within his own borders or his immediate border mates. That he has control of the oil fields inside his own country could possibly be considered a threat to the US because of our dependancy on oil. But Bush and company consistently tell us the war isn't about oil. And, it is his nation's oil to do with as they please.

 

So far I've heard lots of "what if" theories, but nothing that shows a concrete threat to the US. Keep in mind, we've been beating the war drum against Iraq for over a year now. Other than proclaiming that they will defend their country against outside attack, have you heard Saddam ever actually make a threat to the US?

 

While I think his dictatorship is dangerous to the people under him, it isn't a threat to you or me.

[fboisseau]

Kwc57

There was a time before I was born when a leader of a nation did the following. He detained, tortured and gassed his citizens and the leaders of the world looked the other way and did not want to do anything. He violated the treaties that his country had signed and the leaders of the world looked the other way. He built and acquired weapon systems that his country was not allowed and the leaders of the world looked the other way. He invaded his neighbors and the leaders of the world looked the other way for a while, but eventually he went too far and the world responded. Unfortunately by the time the leaders realized what they had to do and did it he was stronger and had strong allies and the world suffered. The things that this leader did and what he wanted to accomplish are the same as what Saddam is trying to do and what he wants. Why should we wait until Saddam is stronger and better entrenched before we act?

 

By the way if the leader I referenced above was Hitler. Saddam is this century's Hitler. Again shall we wait until he is so strong that the cost would be astronomical (i.e. a nuclear attack on an ally) or shall we act now when the cost is still small?

 

[Bryan]

Iraq's "border mates" are Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. The entire industrialized world is dependent, to one degree or another, upon oil from Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.

 

Hussein is not Hitler because I can't picture a scenario in which he could acquire sufficient power to conquer the world. But with the chemical weapons that he has already used against his own civilians, he could kill thousands and thousands of civilians in a single day.

 

Due to his past aggressions, American troops are now stationed by the thousands in Kuwait, Turkey and Saudi Arabia. Many of them were Scouts not very long ago. They are vulnerable to Hussein's chemical weapons.

 

There are also thousands of British troops stationed in Cyprus. Iraqi aircraft, flying through friendly Syrian airspace, could drop chemical weapons there as well.

 

Bulldozed and freshly graded earth, Al-Musayyib Chemical Complex

 

http://prod.bsis.bellsouth.net/coDataImages/p/Groups/14/14513/folders/57775/365234un2.jpg

 

Sanitization of ammunition depot at Taji

 

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030205/capt.1044462106.us_iraq_bnc103.jpg

 

Powell plays tape of Iraqi officers discussing arms

 

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/reuters20030205_322.html

 

"We have this modified vehicle ... What do we say if one of them sees it?" says an Iraqi colonel in one audiotape.

 

"You didn't get a modified ... you don't have a modified," replies an incredulous general. "I'll come to see you in the morning. I'm worried. You all have something left."

 

"We evacuated everything. We don't have anything left," the junior officer replies.(This message has been edited by Bryan)

[packsaddle]

So Bryan, you goin' to enlist?

[acco40]

UN resolutions were passed with respect to Iraq. Iraq has violated those resolutions. Now the question becomes, what does the UN or any other independent country do about it? The UN has no real standing army. The UN has passed resolutions that we (USA) have not been too enamored with and have choosen to ignore.

 

No one doubts that Saddam is a "bad guy." After listening to Powell yesterday, I say we have legitimate reasons for attacking Iraq (violation of UN resolutions). But the USA has a very long track record of NOT attacking every tyrant in the world who uses force, torture, etc. for his own personal gain.

 

With Saddam & Bush it is personal. Why did Reagan/Bush support Saddam with cash and money when fighting Iran? He is no different now than he was then.

 

Getting rid of Saddam is the easy part. What to do with Iraq afterwards is the difficult task. We better have an answer for that before we pull a "regime change."

[ASM1]

It really blows my mind how uninformed people of strong opinion are. Unbeleivable indeed! Please read, so far on 8 major news agancies including CNN. My God folks, pay attention!

 

- News of Bogus UK Intelligence Report Sweeping the Planet

 

- Blair Government Facing Imminent Crisis

 

- Revelation May Speed Up Iraqi Invasion

 

Britain's Intelligence Dossier on Iraq

was Plagiarized from a Grad Student

 

by Michael C. Ruppert

 

 

 

Update: Feb. 7, 2003, 1830 hrs, PST, (FTW): Mainstream media in the U.S. has finally started to report on this story:

CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/02/07/sprj.irq.uk.dossier/index.html

 

 

 

Feb. 6, 2003, 2230 hrs, PST, (FTW) - A story is sweeping the world tonight and it says a great deal about those who are forcing the world into a war it does not want. The famed dossier presented by British Prime Minister Tony Blair to his Parliament was plagiarized from two articles and a September 2002 research paper submitted by a graduate student. Worse, the Iraq described by the graduate student is not the Iraq of 2003 but the Iraq of 1991. So glaring was the theft of intellectual property that the official British document even cut and pasted whole verbatim segments of the research paper, including grammatical errors, and presented the findings as the result of intense work by British intelligence services.

 

U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell both praised and quoted that same British report in his presentation at the United Nations yesterday.

 

It is important that readers see and understand the enormity of this violation of public trust for themselves. The story was first broken by Britain's Channel 4 today and it is appearing in more papers and web sites by the hour. The following links lead directly to the Channel 4 story, to the British "intelligence" report and to the original student paper.

 

What was also disclosed was that certain portions of the academic report were altered by the PM Tony Blair to make them more inflammatory. In one cited instance Blair changed "aiding opposition groups" to "supporting terrorists."

 

The Channel 4 story is at:

http://www.channel4.com/news/home/z/stories/20030206/dossier.html

 

The Official UK intelligence report is at:

http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page7111.asp

 

The original student research paper is located at: http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2002/issue3/jv6n3a1.html

 

In the context of merely preventing or slowing a war with Iraq this would be earth shattering news. But in a world that is slowly beginning to feel the pressure of and admit the reality of dwindling global oil supplies the fallout from the story may actually accelerate hostilities. British Prime Minister Tony Blair will be, by tomorrow, facing monumental challenges in both Parliament and from British public opinion that is overwhelmingly opposed to an Iraqi invasion. The event could be enough to topple his government and cause new elections which might well result in a new government that is not mind-melded with the Bush administration.

 

The Bush administration, faced with its own embarrassment over the issue, cannot wage a successful war without England. The first thought that came to my mind when I saw the story was that George W. Bush must pre-empt this story and make it moot to save not only Blair but himself as well. The only way to do that is to have the war begin before the justified outrage of the electorate which has been treated with utter contempt can make itself felt.

 

I noticed tonight that the Associated Press and Yahoo news had reported that the 101st Air Assault Division based at Ft. Campbell, Kentucky - the Army's premier "door kickers" - had been given their deployment orders for the Gulf this afternoon. As I have previously reported, the 101st, along with units like the 75th Rangers can be deployed and operational within 96 hours, anywhere in the world. When the 101st heads out you know the war is going to start very soon.

 

These are incredibly dangerous times, made more so because there is no turning back for the Bush administration. This story is incredible proof of the cynicism, dishonesty and callousness of the tyrants pushing the world toward destruction. And Iraq is merely the first stop on a sequential plan for control of the last remaining oil reserves on the planet. I encourage all who read the information contained in these links to spread it far and wide and also, by whatever means at their disposal, to tell the mainstream press, members of congress and the White House itself that we will not follow; we will not obey; and we will not kill on the orders of those who lie to us and who demonstrate the integrity of thieves and intellectual cowards.

 

This might be our last chance before the bombs start falling, before young American men and many innocent Iraqi civilians are reduced to blood and ash.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

FROM THE BBC!

 

A dossier of evidence against Iraq is "solid", Downing Street has insisted after allegations that it included plagiarised material that was 12 years out of date.

The UK intelligence document released on Monday was designed to help win over sceptics by detailing Saddam Hussein's efforts to hide weapons of mass destruction.

 

But it emerged that some of the document was copied from three different articles, including one written by a postgraduate student.

 

We consider the text as published to be accurate

 

 

 

Government spokesman

 

 

Compare and contrast dossier with student's report

 

Excerpts from a paper relating to the build-up to the 1991 Gulf War by Californian student Ibrahim al-Marashi were used in the intelligence document.

 

The paper was published in the Middle East Review of International Affairs.

 

Other sections in the dossier were apparently taken from defence journal Jane's Intelligence Review.

 

A Downing Street spokesman insisted the dossier was "accurate" and that the government had never claimed exclusive authorship.

 

US praise

 

"The report was put together by a range of government officials," he said.

 

"As the report itself makes clear, it was drawn from a number of sources, including intelligence material.

 

 

Colin Powell praised the UK document against Iraq

"It does not identify or credit any sources, but nor does it claim any exclusivity of authorship."

 

Mr Blair's spokesman was pressed on the matter again on Friday, and acknowledged that Mr al-Marashi's work should have been credited.

 

He admitted that the second section of the report, on Saddam's regime, had included excerpts from the student's paper on Iraq's intelligence network.

 

But he said the document was "solid". "The overall objective was to give the full picture without compromising intelligence sources," he said.

 

He went on: "It was a pull-together of a variety of sources.

 

"In retrospect, we should, to clear up any confusion, have acknowledged which bits came from public sources and which bits came from other sources."

 

Concern

 

The UK document received praise from US Secretary of State Colin Powell this week as he outlined his country's case against Iraq.

 

 

Being an academic paper, I tried to soften the language

 

 

 

Ibrahim al-Marashi

 

Shadow defence secretary Bernard Jenkin said the Tories were deeply concerned by the programme's report.

 

"The government's reaction utterly fails to explain, deny or excuse the allegations made in it," he said.

 

 

Cosmetic changes

 

"This document has been cited by the prime minister and Colin Powell as the basis for a possible war. Who is responsible for such an incredible failure of judgment?"

 

Liberal Democrat foreign affairs spokesman Menzies Campbell added: "This is the intelligence equivalent of being caught stealing the spoons.

 

"The dossier may not amount to much but this is a considerable embarrassment for a government trying still to make a case for war."

 

Mr Al-Marashi told the BBC Two Newsnight programme the government document was still accurate despite "a few minor cosmetic changes".

 

Anger

 

"The only inaccuracies in the UK document were that they maybe inflated some of the numbers of these intelligence agencies.

 

"The primary documents I used for this article are a collection of two sets of documents, one taken from Kurdish rebels in the north of Iraq - around four million documents - as well as 300,000 documents left by Iraqi security services in Kuwait."

 

Former Labour minister Glenda Jackson, MP for Hampstead and Highgate, was angry about the alleged plagiarism.

 

She told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "If that was presented to Parliament and the country as being up-to-date intelligence, albeit collected from a variety of sources but by British intelligence agents..... it is another example of how the government is attempting to mislead the country and Parliament on the issue of a possible war with Iraq.

 

"And of course to mislead is a Parliamentary euphemism for lying."

 

 

These people are lieing to us and they will be on their knees like all War Pigs begging for mercy when God arives and Satan spreads his wings. Bush is a drug running, oil mongering, war pig like no other in hostory. If you doubt me, just pay attention to the future. Wanna bet there are 100 million dead within 1 year? If there are, will you still worship "W" as God? He is a pig of unimaginable Evil.

 

ASM1

 

I realize this is probably my last post here. My opinions and facts are not well received in the scouting areana.

 

 

 

[bt01]

Is war with Iraq woth posting on this Site???? What do we till the scouts that are in the troop that we belong in?? Is he evil??? Or just a product of the nation he is from?? If we get rid of he, ho do we put in his place??

[packsaddle]

ASM1, I hope that you will continue to post to this and other forums. I share some of your thoughts, perhaps not to the extent that you take them in your post. And I share your loathe of 'W' for very personal reasons as well as some that you mention. I encourage you to continue to interact and not to feel isolated. And I hope the forum guru, or whoever, agrees.

btps, most of the boys I know don't care to know about Saddam. But if we go to war and they ask about it, we should tell them the simple facts, including the stated reasons. Most of them can think for themselves fairly well.

[Zahnada]

ASM1,

 

Disagreement fuels discussion. Discussion can create change. I'm glad you're here and I'm glad you're expressing your views in such a strong way. Where would the conversation be if everyone agreed?

 

I feel that this is the wrong war, at the wrong time, with the wrong enemy (quote taken from Omar Bradley concerning the Korean War. Kind of ironic). No evidence has been presented that has convinced me that we need a war.

[ASM1]

Thanks guys for the kind words. A difference of opinion aired in an open forum is exactly what America stands for. The events of today have turned me from angry to freaked out and frightened for all of our safety. I am not sure how many of you were able to view the news today as it unfolded. That is important because as it broke, shock was felt here. but as expected as the day went forward the news was ever increasingly changed to fit the administrations policies. I will try to summarize the events as they happened. but rest assured, I will find the international releases and copy them here so we all can see this horror.

 

This morning Colin Powel went before the Congressional Hearings and said that there will be a tape release beleived to be Bin Laden proving that he has ties to Iraq in a partnership of terror. He stated he was able to read the transcript last night. We all waited for the promised release. This time the release was a little different, Washington could no longer prevent the immediate release of this transcript because it was on all the Middle Eastern news web sites. It had to fly in virgin form. Powell was confident.

 

Then about ten minutes before it was to be released President Putin held a surprise press conference announcing the mobilization of 300k troops and said that any unilateral military attack against Iraq would be a grave mistake. China made a two second blurp stating it was in full support of Russia's position. (it was at this point that I dropped my coffee and sat down)

 

Then the promised Bin Laden audio tape. The tape was the usual diatribe from Bin Laden about the US.(we love to hate this man) But, about half way through this tape, Bin Laden (if it really was him, we don't know yet) stated that it was crucial that the governments of several Arab countries be overthrown for supporting the US. He emphsized the assissnation of Sadam Hussein as being an infidel who has waged war on his Muslin neighbors and was once a pawn of the US. He urged the people of Iraq to overthrown Saddam and stand and fight the US. He went on about usual propaganda saying our military cannot fight without our air power. Bla bla bla... But he closed his tape with the statement that the US had been duped.

 

MSNBC was all over this story big time. Colin Powell was caight in a lie. The Bush administration was caught with it's pants down. They fell for a phony release and made it public before the real one came out. Bin Laden proved there is no partnership with Iraq. WOW! We were all stunned here. But within an hour the news was changing. If you watch the news tonight, you are seeing that this tape proved Bush right about the partnership. The transcript has now been heavily edited. They showed Bush today right after the release and he was RED with rage.

 

Now my job tonight is to find the original transcript. www.albawaba.com has promised to release the complete transcript. I will be waiting for it and will copy it here. When you line all these events up they way they happened today, it scares you. What I see happening out of this petty war for greed is a possible WWIII with us (the American people as the losers) Now we know why Cheney has been building a bomb shelter under Blair House. I do not care what politcal party you are in, or what race or nationality you are, or no matter how you add up these numbers. We lose this war if it goes to WWIII. I will find the release I promise and post it here.

 

ASM1

[ASM514]

ASM1, I was in philly today and my office called me to tell me about the same. When I got back I called our offices in India and requested that they find the transcript of the release. I will be calling our clients in UAE tonight for info.

 

ASM514

Troop 514