evmori Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 tj, I'm not going to beat a dead horse. While I enjoy a lively debate, we have been over this one many times. I will continue to pray that you realize your sin and ask for God's forgiveness. If you do that, God will open His arms & accept you into His Kingdom. If you don't I'm afraid you will be banished to he**. Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twocubdad Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 A couple of qustions for everyone to chew on. 1) Local Council Executive comes to TJ and says, "TJ, I understand you have told several people you are gay and in fact have been in a relationship with a man for the past 2.5 years. Is that right?" TJ replies, "With all due respect, Mr. SE, that's none of your business." At that point, what does the SE do? Is TJ in or out (no pun intended)? 2) In some of the early replies to TJ's original post, several of you criticized the other Scouters who know about TJ's orientation but have done and said nothing. Why do they have an obligation to "out" TJ? (This message has been edited by Twocubdad) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR540Beaver Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Twocub, What if TJ's response back to the SE was, "I understand that your wife likes this sexual position over this other sexual position....is that right?" What do you think the SE would say? Probably that it was none of his business.......and it wouldn't be, even if it were true.(This message has been edited by kwc57) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twocubdad Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 You're absolutely right. But would that be the end of the conversation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 TJ, If you passed the background check that's all I need to know. Your sexual identity is none of my business (and no-one else's for that matter) but if you care to reveal it that's ok with me. You're welcome at my campfire any time. I do appreciate the sensitivity of those mincing words about all this, though. NJ, I think 15 is a fair estimate. Sagerscout, You ruined me, I'll never think of 'jump the gun' the same way again. RobK, which religions are they that consider murder as good or moral? I don't mean legal executions, but murder in the sense of Charles Manson, Susan Smith, the real deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR540Beaver Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Twocub, I doubt it would be the end of the conversation. The SE would claim that his personal sexuality had nothing to do with scouting while the gay person's did because of the ban. But personal is personal, especially when it involves sex. What my wife and I do or don't do in the privacy of our bedroom is our own business and no one else's. That should be the standard for everyone. If some one wants to provide the gory details, that is their business. But I'd be more inclined to exclude a scouter that wants to tell everyone about what he did last night......homo or hetero, male or female. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red feather Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 "Into the valley rode the six hundred.... cannons to the left .. cannons to the right." Welcome to my campfire anytime. "And by mutual respect for each other, tolerance and standing on common ground" yis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixote Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 kwc, I have read the definition of avowed, thank you. As a matter of fact, i had originally included the definition from www.merriam-webster.com in my post, but since you had already posted it, i deleted it from my response. As far as reading the definition, perhaps you can read my entire response where i allowed that while tj may not meet the ENTIRE defintion, he has at least gone up to the line by tellling SCOUTERS. I am fully aware that words have meanings - that was my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR540Beaver Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Quixote, And you are trying to make avow mean something the word does not mean. TJ did not avow based on the definition of the word, he confided to friends....some of who happen to be scouters. confide (kn-fd) v. confided, confiding, confides v. tr. 1. To tell (something) in confidence: confided a secret to his friend. 2. To give as a responsibility or put into another's care; entrust: confided the task of drafting the report to her assistant. v. intr. To disclose private matters in confidence: He knew he could confide in his parents. See Synonyms at commit. Source: The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Let's ask TJ. TJ, did you avow your homosexuality openly and publically or did you confide in trusted friends? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Rooster says: What's truly disheartening is not TJ's confession, but the responses of his supporters - fellow Scouters who are not plagued by unnatural desires, just perverse politics. Uh huh. "Perverse politics." Rooster, don't you think it's possible that some of us simply do not believe that homosexuality, in and of itself, is immoral? Why would we support a policy of excluding people whose conduct is not immoral? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sctmom Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Hadn't even been reading in this area for awhile, popped over here. TJ's post caught my attention, I thought it was going to be a story about a Scout or Scouter who had come out of the closet with his unit and what happened. TJ, You are also welcome to sit by my campfire and any campfire my son is at. Keep on Scouting. And by the way, I'm not "hidden" on here. Some people in my district know who I am and have met me.(This message has been edited by sctmom)(This message has been edited by sctmom) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster7 Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 To my understanding, avowed means acknowledged or declared. A person could declare himself to be a homosexual to an audience of one, in secrecynevertheless, to the one; he's an avowed homosexual. The policy does not mention whether or not it needed to be in public or private, whether or not it was intended to be a secret, how many people needed to be present, or even if a BSA representative needed to be present. Regardless, I believe - those who are not looking for loopholes understand the intent of the policy very well. Homosexuals are not welcomed as members of the BSA. The language (avowed) used by the BSA in an effort on their part to avoid witch-hunts. Does anyone really believe otherwise? I guess that's a silly question given the responses by some. Still, it seems very clear to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobK Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 which religions are they that consider murder as good or moral? Well, there are the various sects of radical Islam that say if you die while killing an infidel it's a ticket to paradise. India had suttee and the Thuggee. The Aztecs did human sacrifice. Generally they dress it up as doing a good deed. There are other religions and sects that are even more egregious examples. The point is that we must draw the line on morality somewhere. Just because some religion somewhere says a thing is OK, doesn't mean the rest of us should accept it in our organization or society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acco40 Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 What is perfectly clear is that the BSA does not want any monetary or political backlash from accepting homosexuals into their organization. Therefore, homosexuals can join but if it becomes an issue (i.e. the individual is now "avowed") out he/she goes. However, the BSA frames the issue in one of morality and character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixote Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 kwc, friend or not, confidant or not, IF tj informed a SCOUT EXECUTIVE that he was a homosexual, that SCOUT EXECUTIVE has a DUTY to abide by the policies and procedures of the BSA. If he has informed a BSA employee or scout executive, he, as far as the BSA is concerned, is an avowed homosexual and subject to removal from his leadership position. NJ - please help out here - if i tell the local counstable "in confidence" that i committed a crime, can not that "confession" be used against me in court? (Assuming i have been "read my rights") How can you tell someone as a friend and not expect them in their official function NOT TO KNOW???? Some friend to put them in that position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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