Freedoms

[ASM7]

pfann

Sounds like you read it right. Everyone is talking like Scalia is endorsing certain religions. He's not. He's talking about the freedom to worship God. Sounds to me like he is interpreting the law the way it was meant. The way it was written.

By the way, as a Christian, I pray as a Christian. I don't do it to offend anyone and I don't care if it does. I'm not going to change that, because I have that freedom. I'm not offended by prayers of any other religion. So, what sense does it make to ask me to pray a prayer that pleases everyone. That's what is offensive to me. If your not a religious person, what does does it matter anyway?

Doug

[evmori]

If a Muslim was to walk onto the floor of Congress & prayed, so what. If he is an American citizen, that is his right guaranteed by the Constitution.

 

Most Jews don't believe Jesus was the Son of God. They feel He was another prophet. And that is their right! They also don't believe the same thing Muslims or Buddists believe. What's your point.

 

My question was not answered.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[SR540Beaver]

Ed,

 

My point was that many people in our "Christian" nation would find it offensive. Yes, the Muslim would be within his rights to worship as he sees fit. But many Americans would feel that the government was endorsing Islam if a Muslim cleric conducted their required prayers 5 times a day in Congress.

 

Many non-Christians feel the same way when government run schools, courts and legislatures open with Christian prayers, display the 10 commandments, etc. It gives the appearance of recognizing one religion over another and endorsing it.

 

Personally, since I am part of that Christian majority that basks in the glow of government support, it has little effect on me and I'm happy. I can however put myself in the shoe of the other guy and see why they have a problem with it.

[littlebillie]

"If a Muslim was to walk onto the floor of Congress & prayed, so what. If he is an American citizen, that is his right guaranteed by the Constitution."

 

Ummm - I'd expect that ANY uninvited person, intending prayer or not, entering a legislative session in progress and beginning a loud prayer or speaking in tongues, would be ushered out PDQ, and possibly arrested into the bargain.

 

Praying to yourself - that'd be different. But an uninvited disruption of the proceedings? I don't think that's protected...?

[acco40]

To be blunt, I would prefer that the public servants that I support with my tax dollars would not spend their time praying while "on the job."

 

I work in the defense industry for a private company. We need to have an approved charge number for every task we work on. To my knowledge, none has ever existed for praying on company time.

 

I never understood the need some feel to verbalize prayer or pray en mass.

[evmori]

littlebillie,

What if the Muslim was a member of Congress?

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[littlebillie]

evmori,

 

I'm a little rusty on my Robert's Rules, but unless one has the floor, I'm not sure how that would fly - probably get ruled out of order... Interesting question, but of course now we've gone from ANY American citizen to member of Congress.

 

Outside on the steps - now, that'd be a different matter, too. I think...

[SR540Beaver]

My Congress example meant the daily opening prayer, not someone disrupting a session.

[evmori]

"I'm a little rusty on my Robert's Rules, but unless one has the floor, I'm not sure how that would fly - probably get ruled out of order... Interesting question, but of course now we've gone from ANY American citizen to member of Congress.

 

Outside on the steps - now, that'd be a different matter, too. I think... "

 

Wouldn't ruling him put of order be a violation of the 1st Ammendment?

 

And what is the difference where he/she is?

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Quixote]

To be blunt, I would prefer that the public servants that I support with my tax dollars would not spend their time praying while "on the job."

Perhaps if some of those servants that didn't say a prayer did, the country would be a little better off

 

I work in the defense industry for a private company. We need to have an approved charge number for every task we work on. To my knowledge, none has ever existed for praying on company time.

 

Please explain $600 toilet seat

 

I never understood the need some feel to verbalize prayer or pray en mass.

And i never understood the need by some to criticize others for praying, either en mass or alone to their God

 

YIS

Quixote

Unsuccessful Windmill Tilter & Prayor of Prayers.

 

 

[berkshirescouter]

Though I am not working in the defense industry now I used to and I was submariner. The $600 toilet seat etc. though extreme has a reason. In a combat environment all products must be tested to meet standards that in normal life would be a dont care. The best example was the cover on a flashlight switch to keep it water tight. You could buy one for 5 cents but the Navy paid $5.00 each for them Why?, because if they caught on fire the gases expelled could not be toxic and thus they had to be tested for this. It would not be good if a death was caused by toxic fumes when it could have been prevented. Its all how they write the specifications.

[KoreaScouter]

There's another angle on that, too. On the higher-ticket items such as tanks, helicopters, and airplanes, critics and the media usually express the cost per copy by taking the total program funds over the life of the program, and dividing it by the number of tanks, helicopters, whatever, that are produced. It's expedient, but can be very misleading, especially if the item has a small production run, like a B-2 bomber. The fixed costs of all the production & test facilities, as well as the costs of basing and support, are apportioned over a small number of airframes. This makes each airplane appear more expensive than it actually is (although they're not cheap by any means!).

 

A Ford Escort would cost $50 million if Ford designed it, built factories and test facilities, laid on a parts stock, mailed out employee paychecks, trained mechanics nationwide, advertised, then only built fifty of them.

 

KS

[littlebillie]

"Wouldn't ruling him put of order be a violation of the 1st Ammendment? And what is the difference where he/she is?"

 

well, as I said, an interesting question. Let's say a burglar is being arrested, tries to fall to his knees to pray, and is not allowed to pray out loud, say, or clasp his hands, in a moment of crisis. Sh/Would this be grounds for some kind of suit further on?

 

is it allowable that anyone go into any publicplace at any time and begin a prayer that is disruptive?

 

As I say, I don't know the legal OR moral OR ethical answer. But whatever - allowed or prohibited - it's got to be all or none.

 

A religious snake handler should be able to take out his rattlers in public if the Moslem is able to sit on his prayer rug, etc. Or else NO ONE's allowed.

 

Or so it would seem...?

[SR540Beaver]

Littlebillie,

 

Like I said just a few posts ago, my Congress prayer meant the opening prayer of a session that is on the schedule each day and is part of tradition in Congress. This usually is done by a Christian minister. I'm not talking about anyone praying anywhere. Anybody can pray anytime and anywhere they want because of religious freedom and 1st amendment rights. Now, if they want to stand up during a broadway play and put on their own performance, they might get booed and escorted out of the theater. I'm speaking of a place like Congress (which is a government entity) having a Muslim cleric DO prayers they're required to do 5 times a day. Many Americans would be outraged and feel that the government was endorsing Islam in a "Christian" nation and would feel that it would be inappropriate for Congress to allow. I brought this up and would like to keep this fragment of the thread in context instead of running into left field with it.

[littlebillie]

kwc57,

 

sorry for confusions - my recent responses have been addressing evmori's "If a Muslim was to walk onto the floor of Congress & prayed, so what. If he is an American citizen, that is his right guaranteed by the Constitution." I still don't think that the Constitution gives the average joe the right to do this, uninvited and without warning. Your point, I got - Ed seemed to suggest that sponateoulsy using the Senate as an ad hoc House of Prayer was the right of every American... and whatever, THAT, it should be right of ALL - or of NONE. I don't see how anything in between is just or Constitutional.

 

sorry for the blurrage!