Calif. Judges Possibly Banned from Scouting Activity

[evmori]

littlebillie,

OK I'll play. My perception would be the same.

 

In your "what if" it is implied that God would create someone homosexual. Not possible. Why would God create a human being contradictory to Himself. Remember, we are all made in His image.

 

kwc57,

You seem to contradict yourself. You imply that being homosexual is inborn yet you say it is a lifestyle? If homosexuality were inborn then OK maybe you are correct implying it can be both. But, since homosexuality can't be inborn it is only a lifestyle.

 

A blessed Christmas to all!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[SR540Beaver]

Evmori,

 

Let me clarify my meaning. I do believe people are born that way and that it is not just a "lifestyle". My comments meant that anything can be considered a lifestyle. Being a scouter can be considered a lifestyle because for many people it defines much of who they are and how they conduct themselves, but no one was born a scouter. Why can't God have created a person homosexual? Children are born with birth defects. Babies are born mentally retarded. Those are not choices they made later in life. Were they not also created in God's image? Who's image were they created in since they are not "normal"? I'm an insulin dependant diabetic and I can assure you I never made a choice to be that way. My wife has a chemical imbalance that causes her to suffer from depression. She did not choose that either. Our bodies were made that way. What does a person made in God's image look like? Perfect health with no blemish or defect internally or externally? Few people will ever live up to that standard Ed. I don't believe God has a cleft pallete or club feet or webbed fingers or Down's syndrome or a conjoined twin, yet each person born that way is made in God's image aren't they? God allows us to be born with physical and mental defects, why can't one of those be homosexuality? Think about it. All of those things can be used to God's glory depending on how we choose to play the hand we are dealt. The Bible is full of such stories.

[littlebillie]

"In your "what if" it is implied that God would create someone homosexual. Not possible. Why would God create a human being contradictory to Himself. Remember, we are all made in His image."

 

evmori, that's not playing - tsk, tsk, tsk - that's basically saying that there is NO proof you would ever accept that some people may just be born gay. even if a research team could show you a gene involved, you've already determined that it's impossible because you seem to recognize set limits on what God can do or might intend...

 

oh, well. no surprises anyway, and i already said I'd understand if ya didn't wanna play.

[Rooster7]

kwc57,

 

There are one or two boys in my son's den that I'd bet cold hard cash on that they will grow up to be gay. I know profiling is not very PC, but there are too many stereotypical indicators in these boys for me to think otherwise. Much of that is based on what I observed in kids I grew up with who turned out to be gay.

 

Can you say, self-fulfilling prophesy? I know of a few boys that fit your description, but I do not presume that they will continue to display the same characteristics as men. As mentors, we have a responsibility to help these boys develop into men. While each man is different, there are certain qualities that we all should embrace. For some it comes naturally, for others it takes some training. If you do not have a strong vision as to what it means to be a man, then a boy under your mentorship will follow your queue.

 

To me, whether or not someone can be born homosexual or has genes that can make him predisposed to the behavior is irrelevant. The behavior is immoral. Say tomorrow, scientists provide evidence that backs this claim one is born homosexual. What does it prove? What should we think of bestiality and other perversities if the same kind of evidence is presented for these behaviors? The real question is, does everyone have the capacity to determine whether or not ones behavior is immoral? I submit the answer is yes. You asked Ed Mori to imagine how these men came to be homosexual. Let me ask you a question how do you suppose these men justified embracing homosexuality when the vast majority of society was decrying it as perverse and evil? Hmmm, it feels so right, society must be wrong. God wants me to have sex with other men, just as if they were women. I know we wont have children, but this is obviously a gift from God. I will do this, even though my family and friends will reject me. I will do this because its the only way I can be satisfied and happy. This sounds pretty self-centered and perverse to me. In fact, I hesitate to write some of it for fear of offending my God. Perhaps you can imagine some other kind of self-talk that the homosexual goes through. But I doubt that it will come off as sincere or convincing. These men caved in to sexual cravings that they know are contradictory to nature, society, and God. In short, it felt good to them, so they did it.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[SR540Beaver]

WHOA Rooster,

 

Number one, about the self fulfilling prophecy thing, I for one won't treat these boys differently because of what I suspect their future to be. They'll get the same treatment from me that each other boy will get.

 

Also, I never said that homosexuallity was not immoral nor did I bring up how the person became gay. Ed was the one who said that they can not be born gay because it would be contradictory to God's image. I was asking if it isn't possible for whatever reason for someone to be born that way seeing as how children are born with all other manner of physical and mental defects? Are they contridictory to God's image as well? Yes, at some point many gay people will tire of the constant battle of trying to be "normal" by society's standards and give into their "nature". Stop and remember when you were a teenager Rooster with all of those raging hormones and how you had to resist the natural urges of your body. If you were like me, hopefully you succeeded in resisting. But I'll be the first to tell you it was extremely hard at times. I also ask you to remember how pleasurable you intimate relationship with your wife has been for you in your adult life. Imagine having to deny that side of your life for the rest of your life. Do you honestly think you would not have many of those same self talks with yourself on whether to suffer thru "doing the right thing" or fulfilling your natural instincts. The attraction and desire you feel for the opposite sex is the same thing a gay person feels for the members of his gender. There are many a single adults who cave to the same temptations too. All I can say is, "there go I, but for the grace of God". While I do consider it immoral myself, I find it hard to sit in judgement of someone who feels the same as me, just different.

[Rooster7]

kwc57,

 

I'm not standing in judgment of the individual, just the sin. No matter how strong one's urges are, they do not excuse the sin. Can I empathize with the sinner...Yes, because as you know, we are all are guilty. Is this hypercritical? If so, we are all hypocrites. Still, does that justify sin? So, how does the homosexual differentiate himself from other sinners.? You talk as if they are somehow different.

[evmori]

God does create people with physical & mental infirmities. Why, I don't know. I do know that we are all made in the image of God & maybe I worded my post poorly. In the Bible, God denounces sin. He doesn't denounce physical & mental infirmities. He also destroys whole cities because they are immoral & will not change. And in each instance, the major immorality is homosexuality! God never destroyed people because they were mentally or physically imperfect!

 

lttlebillie,

I guess you are correct. I won't play because I will not compromise my morals. If you want to, go ahead. Set that type of example for your Scouts.

 

A blessed Christmas to all.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[KoreaScouter]

I'm not going to get into the "born vs. made" argument that all threads even remotely related to homsexuality seem to get bogged down in. But, I will make an observation.

 

Right now, how many judges and attorneys considering becoming a judge AND are Scouters (I have no idea how many people we're talking about here) are contemplating leaving Scouting as a pre-emptive move to inoculate themselves from criticism later on?

 

Isn't it unfortunate that in at least this context, being a Scouter is seen as a character flaw? From "freedom of association" to "guilt by association".

 

I'm an MBA, not a JD, but I do know that judges excuse themselves from cases all the time because of potential conflicts of interest. Let's face it, judges are humans who live lives and have professional and personal interests that may sometimes run up against a case coming before their court. I guess California doesn't trust their judges to do the right thing.

 

KS

[littlebillie]

a.

littlebillie,

OK I'll play. My perception would be the same...

 

b.

lttlebillie,

I guess you are correct. I won't play...

 

 

Ed, since it seems you are unsure of your own intent, is it not possible that your view of what God's true intent might be even the slightest bit askew?

 

btw, no one's even asked you to compromise YOUR morals, but simply to consider what it might mean if there is in fact a genetic component to homosexuality. Your position seems to be the same as the Catholic Church when Galileo suggested the earth moved about the sun. Can't be, not in the Bible, God wouldn't allow it.

 

It may not give you pause for thought, but it certainly does me!

 

Happy Christmas today, and joyous Kwanzaa beginning tomorrow, all!

 

[evmori]

My intent is very clear & my view of God's intent isn't askew. I set no limits on what God can do since I can't fathom the extent of His power. Could He create a homosexual human? Yes. God can do everything.

 

A joyous New Year to all.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[ScoutParent]

Even if a genetic link were shown it still is only a predisposition--not a mandate. Each individual determines their own behavior.

[Rooster7]

ScoutParent,

 

Amen. You've hit the nail on the head. People continue to speak of homosexuality as if it is something other than behavior. I have news for those folks. I'm a heterosexual with four kids and a wife. If I wanted to, I could have abstained from sex... I could have chosen to be a single man with no kids and no wife. While that might be a lonely existence (although, I know God provides for us in all circumstances), it is a choice that we can make. Likewise, the homosexual is not driven by God or anyone else to engage in perverse behavior. He can chose to abstain. Do you think every person with a perverse urge must carry it out - to be true to himself? If so, we're in a lot of trouble. Wait a minute, may be we're already there. I pray we reverse the trend that this world seems to have set for itself. I doubt that it's possible, but as God fearing people we certainly should not embrace it.

 

[SR540Beaver]

Rooster,

 

I don't pretend to understand homosexuality. It is wrong and unnatural to me. It is beyond my comprehension. However, what I do understand is sexuality. While our religion and society teaches us that homosexuality is perverse and a sin, for a person who is gay, the same feelings and desire you felt for your girlfriends and wife are the same feelings they feel for members of their same sex. Yes, how we "behave" is totally in our control. Our "instinct" is not in our control. The best any of us can do is to control our instincts with our behavior, but we can not change our instincts. Do you think you can train a salmon not to leave the ocean and swim inland and upstream to breed or train a bird not to sit on the eggs in their nest? You can modify their "behavior" by restricting their ability to do what comes "natural" to them.

 

You said that you could have chosen to abstain from sex and not marry and have children. But did you? Why? What if someone told you that what seems natural to you was wrong and that you can't do it? You admitted that it would be lonely......how about miserable, depressing and a constant temptation too? Here is a challenge, decide to abstain from sex for the next year. Tell your wife that you want to concentrate on your relationship with God and just like fasting, you want to abstain from sex in order to focus all of your attention and energies on God. Surely she could undertand and respect that. See how long you can go without the sexual release and intimacy and how long it will take before it begins to affect your marriage and other aspects of your life.

 

I've known a number of gay people and everyone that I've known has one constant wish......that they were not gay. Some I've known actually have abstained and have tried to find other ways to find a way to fill their lives. One I knew was the most talented, dedicated and best Southern Baptist music ministers I've ever known. He abstained and tried his best to live a "normal" life above reproach. He even went so far as to get married. Seems many of us protestants don't like having single ministers! His wife was convinced she could turn him around after getting married. Even though he sought the Lord's help through constant prayer and modified his behavior over his instinct, his homosexuality ended up being his eventual undoing. He was such a dedicated hardworker and so popular with the congregation (who had no idea that he struggled with a homosexual nature) that our pastor became jealous. He was under constant bombbardment from our pastor and some of his cronies who were attempting to "help" him. (I know because I was the Vice-Chairman of the Deacon body at the time.) They drug him off to a radical evangelist's home who's claim to fame was spiritual warfare to have his "demons" of homosexuality cast out of him. Well of course, rather than keeping all of this confidential, it leaked out and he eventually had to leave the church and a 20 year highly successful ministry. Of course, it ended up costing him his marriage too because his wife couldn't convert him and get him to have sex with her (even though she knew his orientation before they married). She persued him for years before he finally gave in and dated and married her.

 

There is no easy answer to the problem of homosexuality. All I can come up with is....walk a mile in someone else's shoes before you criticize them. Hence, my suggestion that for all of those people who think abstinance is the answer......give it a try yourself (for the rest of your life) before you so boldly tell someone else that it is the only answer for them. I think that if the shoe was on the other foot, we might have a little more compassion for those who are born with a "backwards" instinct.

[NJCubScouter]

I think Rooster's position can be boiled down to 1 or 2 sentences, this way: Even if scientists proved that people are "born gay," homosexual behavior would still be a "sin," and I guess more to the point, it would still justify exclusion of an openly gay leader from the BSA. If a second sentence is necessary, it would be that the born homosexual can avoid "sin" by abstaining. If I am oversimplifying here, please let me know, but I don't think I am.

 

So: We're starting from the hypothesis (which I understand you do not accept, which is why it's called a hypothesis) that gay people are born that way. You say it doesn't matter, it's a sin. But where does the concept of "sin" come from, and who defines what is a "sin"? I assume you would say that the answer to both questions is "God." But since you also believe God made us (and makes us), wouldn't that mean that God made gay people gay? Wouldn't it further mean that God wanted a gay person to be gay? And wouldn't it further mean that God did not have a problem with a gay person behaving as God created him to behave?

 

Rooster, when you respond, I wouldn't bother referring to the Bible. Since I have shown that your hypothesis (gays are born gay) means that God doesn't have a problem with them being gay, then the Word of God can't possibly declare that homosexuality is a sin. God wouldn't declare his own work to be a sin, right? That leaves only 3 choices where the Bible is concerned: One, it is not the Word of God; two, it is an imperfect rendition of the Word of God; three, what we today call the "Bible" contains misinterpretations and mistranslations of the original text that result in condemnations of homosexuality that the original author (or Author) never intended. I assume you would choose the third one, and there are articles that an Internet search will reveal, that will explain how all of the alleged Biblical condemnations of homosexuality are based on misinterpretations and mistranslations.(This message has been edited by NJCubScouter)

[ScoutParent]

lol that might work for a tired, bored jury but it certainly doesn't hold water here. Talk about convoluted logic. First of all if it were proven to be a genetic trait, that does not mean that God approves of the behavior, just as drunkeness and glutttony are both sins although they have genetic links. The rest of your argument falls apart after that.