Anybody Know Anything About these Guys?

[Rooster7]

I distanced myself because I don't recall what verbiage Farwell and Robertson used to express their opinions. While I agree with the basic premise that God protects nations that conform to His will (in ways that we may or may not see), I don't necessarily agree with every twist that someone might put on that truism. The few times I have heard Farwell and Robertson speak, they seemed fairly rational. But I will not hang all of Christianity on the thoughts of one person (aside from Christ). By the way, Israel is a perfect example of a nation that is being protected by God. If you don't believe it, just take a look at a map and read a history book or two and look at today's headlines.

 

TJ, I have a difficult time staying angry at a man who uses logic and honestly appears to be seeking common ground. However, I also feel that you don't portray Christianity fairly. Farwell and Robertson may have overstated their beliefs, but I think they seek God and His will.

 

OGE, you don't believe our nation has been blessed and protected by God?

 

[acco40]

I for one, don't believe God is a nationalist.

[Rooster7]

acco40,

 

I for one, don't believe God is a nationalist.

 

Well that's a very interesting and provocative comment, but I don't it reflects the reality of this conversation. The point was and is - A nation that is governed by laws and men who honor God is blessed and protected.

 

Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD ,

the people he chose for his inheritance.

From heaven the LORD looks down

and sees all mankind;

from his dwelling place he watches

all who live on earth-

he who forms the hearts of all,

who considers everything they do.

No king is saved by the size of his army;

no warrior escapes by his great strength.

A horse is a vain hope for deliverance;

despite all its great strength it cannot save.

But the eyes of the LORD are on those who fear him,

on those whose hope is in his unfailing love,

to deliver them from death

and keep them alive in famine. PSALM 33:12-19

 

Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a disgrace to any people. PROVERBS 14:34

 

Does this mean no hardship will befall a nation that embraces God? No, there are still plenty of evildoers in the world who seek to persecute God's people. Yet, God does see all and His righteousness and love will prevail for those who seek Him.

 

When calamity comes, the wicked are brought down, but even in death the righteous have a refuge. PROVERBS 14:32

 

Nationalist? Using the world's definition of this word, I'd have to agree. However, if a nation is on their face before God, I believe God does indeed favor that nation.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Rooster,

 

No I dont beleive God has blessed the United States. To say so means he has to have turned his back on others. I think he has blessed humanity with a world that has ample resources for everyone if we all get along. To beleive that the U.S. has God's protection totaly flies in the face of the concept of free will.

I sing "God Bless America" with all the fervor I can muster, just as I am sure English Scouters sing "God Save the Queen". I pray for God's blessing just as a father of a family in Italy does. Do I think God favors the US over other countries? No I dont. I think God has placed us here on Earth as our test, to see if we merit eternal life with him. It is up to us and the rest of the world to get along during our sojourn here.

 

To say that God has protected our country since 1812 is beyond my comprehension. How was that date arrived at? No foreign power has invaded us since then? What was the Mexican-American War? Again, what was Pearl Harbor, or dosent that count as only the lower 48 states are protected. The Aleutian islands of Alaska saw action duting WWII as well.

 

Now, this may be what you are talking about, I thank God quite often that I was born in the United States, a country whose evolution (and I use that word very loosely) is quite unique in terms of history. But to say that God blessed the US and not Bolivia or any of the other countries that were settled by Europeans at that time I dont believe is reasonable.

 

You know, the North American Continent was not exactly uninhabited when it was "discovered". Are we to beleive God allowed the United States to wipe out multiple exisitng civilizations because he wanted to bless us?

 

Dont get me wrong, I love our country, I love God. I love the ideals our country stands for while realizing where we have come from and when we have come up short to them. I say this is the greatest country on earth, but I also remember that we are still refining the whole freedom thing, we haven't gotten it down yet, we are further along than anyone else but we have a long way to go.

 

Why would God protect the US and Israel?, If I remember right, The God of Abraham is the same God Christians, Jews, and Muslims revere. Will God protect one faction who prays to him from another? Does this mean he loves one group more than the other? I cant reconcile this at all.

 

The short sum of it is, God has blessed us all, its up to us to do the rest. Sometimes we do it well, sometimes we don't

[tjhammer]

TJ, I have a difficult time staying angry at a man who uses logic and honestly appears to be seeking common ground.I'll accept that as a compliment, since I do make an effort to always use logic and reason in my posts, and as little emotion or opinion as I can muster.However, I also feel that you don't portray Christianity fairly.Certainly more fairly than you portray gays. My posts are about fundamentalist Christians, and specifically even about some very well known and celebrated fundamentalist Christian leaders. I can clearly see the distinction between this radical group (which I feel is about as far away from Christ's true teachings as you can get sometimes) and all of Christianity. All of your indictments of gays are based on radical, extreme examples of gay life, too. Yet you're much more willing to portray all gays in the same light.

 

So how about this... I'll not portray all Christians (remember, I consider myself one) based on the extreme examples of Phelps and Falwell and Robertson, and you stop portraying all gays based on the group trolling the neighborhood park you often refer to?

[Rooster7]

OGE,

 

No I don't believe God has blessed the United States. To say so means he has to have turned his back on others.

 

No. I never claimed that America had exclusive rights to his blessings and protections.

 

I think he has blessed humanity with a world that has ample resources for everyone if we all get along. To believe that the U.S. has God's protection totally flies in the face of the concept of free will.

 

Free will is a concept, which should be applied to individuals. God can reward a nation and still judge us as individuals. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

 

I sing "God Bless America" with all the fervor I can muster, just as I am sure English Scouters sing "God Save the Queen". I pray for God's blessing just as a father of a family in Italy does. Do I think God favors the US over other countries? No I don't.

 

We're in agreement. Again, God can bless more than one nation.

 

I think God has placed us here on Earth as our test, to see if we merit eternal life with him.

 

As a Catholic, I am surprised you'd say such a thing. There is no test that man can pass that will gain him salvation. Accepting and embracing Christ's gift (his atoning sacrificing on the cross) is the only path to salvation. If you call that a test, then I agree.

 

It is up to us and the rest of the world to get along during our sojourn here.

 

Yes. Unfortunately, mankind's hearts and minds are corrupted. If you think we'll see peace on Earth without Christ, you place too much faith in men.

 

To say that God has protected our country since 1812 is beyond my comprehension. How was that date arrived at? No foreign power has invaded us since then? What was the Mexican-American War? Again, what was Pearl Harbor, or doesn't that count as only the lower 48 states are protected. The Aleutian islands of Alaska saw action during WWII as well.

 

Well, first, I never mentioned 1812, 1776, or any other date. I just agree with the notion that God has blessed America. And to some degree, has provided protection for us. No matter how you portray those conflicts, in the end, America came out on top.

 

Now, this may be what you are talking about, I thank God quite often that I was born in the United States, a country whose evolution (and I use that word very loosely) is quite unique in terms of history. But to say that God blessed the US and not Bolivia or any of the other countries that were settled by Europeans at that time I don't believe is reasonable.

 

I guess we're repeating ourselves. But again, why do you presume God only blesses one country at a time.

 

You know, the North American Continent was not exactly uninhabited when it was "discovered". Are we to believe God allowed the United States to wipe out multiple existing civilizations because he wanted to bless us?

 

To be perfectly honest, I don't know what to believe in regard to our country's history involving the Indian nations. I'd like to believe there's a creditable source on this matter. Unfortunately, these stories seem to change every year - most portraying the settlers as the worst kind of human beings. I find these new versions of history difficult to believe - because over the last 30 to 40 years, it's become extremely popular to portray every minority in America as a victim of white Europeans. While there is truth in this claim, I question the degree and accuracy of many of these stories, as well as the motivation behind them. Regardless, when God blesses a nation, it is not a blanket endorsement of every person and/or act of that nation. From my reading of the Old Testament, God blesses a nation when they do something that pleases Him. It does not mean everything they have done in the past, or will do in the future, will be just as pleasing to Him.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love our country, I love God. I love the ideals our country stands for while realizing where we have come from and when we have come up short to them. I say this is the greatest country on earth, but I also remember that we are still refining the whole freedom thing, we haven't gotten it down yet, we are further along than anyone else but we have a long way to go.

 

I agree with the sentiment that we live in a great country. I'm not sure why you believe that we have "a long way to go" in regards to freedom. If anything, I would say we have a long way to go in regards to how we use that freedom. Do we use it for good or for evil?

 

Why would God protect the US and Israel?, If I remember right, The God of Abraham is the same God Christians, Jews, and Muslims revere. Will God protect one faction who prays to him from another? Does this mean he loves one group more than the other? I can't reconcile this at all.

 

The Bible clearly teaches that the Hebrews are God's chosen people. He wants them to recognize Christ Jesus as the Messiah. The Book of Revelation tells of a day when this will happen. I'm not sure how Muslims claim the God of Abraham. Perhaps someone could enlighten me. Regardless, God will protect and bless those people who seek Him.

 

The short sum of it is, God has blessed us all, its up to us to do the rest. Sometimes we do it well, sometimes we don't.

 

I believe God continually calls us to Him, and to some degree, blesses us. I also believe that God can and will remove His blessings and protections from individuals and nations if we profane His Spirit. As for doing well or not, that's a complicated assessment to make in a fallen world. I think we "do it well" if we respond according to God's promptings - regardless of the outcome.

 

[Rooster7]

TJ,

 

So how about this... I'll not portray all Christians (remember, I consider myself one) based on the extreme examples of Phelps and Falwell and Robertson, and you stop portraying all gays based on the group trolling the neighborhood park you often refer to?

 

If you honestly believe that Robertson and Phelps believe in the exact same things, then do as your conscience leads you. I think the comparison is wrong. From what I've seen and heard, Robertson prays for the homosexual. Phelps appears to have nothing but hatred for them (given the signs that this group was holding). Yes, both claim to be Christian. And yes, both condemn the sin of homosexuality. However, Phelps appears to be attacking people and not the behavior. I don't think you can fairly say Robertson has acted in the same mannerlikewise for Falwell.

 

As to how I portray homosexuals, no - I did not claim that every homosexual has demonstrated the same outlandish behavior as the men in that Virginia state park. I used the news story as an example to show how depraved many homosexuals can become. Bare in mind, this is not an isolated case. Homosexuals are notorious for this kind of behavior. And while I agree that many (maybe even most) may not endorse that public behavior, by definition, they engage in the same sexual perversities. This being a forum for Scouters, I will refrain from graphic descriptions. However, I feel it is fair to say that the sexual acts that these men (or women) engage in are purely for their own twisted gratification and do not represent a natural physical and spiritual manifestation of love, which God has designed for a man and a woman (within the context of a marriage).

 

[Glenn]

Rooster,

 

If I understand correctly, the Muslim people are supposed to be descendants of Ishmael, the son of Abraham and Agar (an Egyptian I believe). Ishmael was promised by God to "have a great nation". As you know, Isaac was the future of the Hebrew people. Ishmael's "nation" became the Muslim people.

[OldGreyEagle]

Rooster, I didnt say you said 1812, Falwell said 1812 thats where the date came from.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/14/Falwell.apology/

 

 

And the story of Ishmael

 

http://www.execulink.com/~wblank/ishmael.htm

[red feather]

Scoutparent please note the wink in the smiley face. Indeed, ironic is the word.

 

Rooster7, check out the December 2001 issue of National Geographic for more information on Abraham.

 

yis

[slontwovvy]

The most entertaining CNN interview ever was on a couple of weeks ago: Jerry Falwell v. Barney Franks, the only gay member of the House of Representatives. I don't think the commentator got a word in edgewise.

[tjhammer]

Actually, Barney Frank is not the only gay member of Congress. Rep. Jim Kolbe (R-Ariz.) and Rep. Tammy Baldwin (D-Wis.) are both openly gay, and as someone who has had many close friends inside the Hill, I can tell you that these three are hardly the only gays serving in Congress, they are just the only ones doing so in the public.