Anybody Know Anything About these Guys?

[OldGreyEagle]

http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-b21_4westboro.2313216dec07.story

 

 

Who are these guys?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[SR540Beaver]

I don't know and I don't want to know. There are many stripes of Baptists in the world and I just hope (and doubt) they are not Southern Baptist like myself. Christians need to be honest, but not brutal. We've all recently seen the results of radicalism. As my mom always said, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

[tjhammer]

Of course... we've discussed "Rev" Fred Phelps and his family church on this board before (literally, most of the members of his following are related to him)... you can count on him to show up and protest at the funeral of any gay person (the signs mentioned in this article are very mild by comparison). I think the last time we discussed him on this board was in the days of DedDad... Phelps uses the bible to justify his radical commentary... frankly, it's not at all a different position from many others on this board, just more distastefully presented. Lest you consider him too far out of the "mainstream" of "Christian" views, don't forget that "Rev" Pat Robertson and "Rev" Jerry Falwell echoed these same beliefs shortly after Sept 11 (that God was punishing America because of gays and other "sinners").

[OldGreyEagle]

Discussing something on this forum and seeing it in person is two different things. Gotta tell you , it was cold this weekend in Allentown.

 

However, I think this forum is mature and intelligent enough to know that this sampling of behavior is not indicative of all Baptist behavior. I would not want anyone to think all Baptists have such an "in your face" mentality. I think its wrong to characterize an entire segment of a population based on a miniscule sampling.

[tjhammer]

OGE, I agree... these acts are not representative of much more than a miniscule sampling of Christians... and while most would find "Rev" Phelps actions to be an aberration, how different are his beliefs from much more mainstream Christian leaders like Falwell and Robertson... true enough, for the most part Falwell and Robertson and others are a bit more savvy and controlled, and only rarely do they slip up and allow their true opinions to be "known" as they did after Sept 11 (only later to quickly back away from the remarks). I suppose that I'm more concerned with the mass of silent followers, who put their "faith" in the hands of religious leaders and dogma like this, and allow themselves to be complicit by association and contributory by general support.

 

I agree with you, I don't believe most Christians share the beliefs of Phelps, or Robertson & Falwell... but at least in the laters' case, there is sure a large population of Christians that continue to support and follow these "leaders" regardless.

[ScoutParent]

They are Americans expressing themselves in accordance with their First Ammendment rights. Do I agree with their message--NO not the way that they chose to state it. God is a loving and forgiving and that's why he sent Jesus Christ to die for all of our sins, even the homosexuals. I would rather Christians protesting would use signs that show God's love and his willingness to give us his son as our Savior rather than the raw hate these people seem to spurt. I do find it interesting though that the same people who support Merlyn's rights to atheism and hate speech ocused towards God find this hate speech focused towards man so offensive. The easiest way to find out if this is what Christians think is to read the Bible. If the scripture doesn't support it then it's not what God expects from us.

 

[tjhammer]

ScoutParent -- for the record, I'm actually in full support of "Rev" Phelps (or Falwell or Robertson or anyone) freedom of speech... in fact, I wish they got more media coverage and exposure. The more that these guys "speak up", the more that most Christians realize how little they relate to this point of view and attitudes change. Frankly, I've seen this in a microcosm on this discussion board... over the months I have increasingly found it more difficult to relate to the positions taken by the "ultra religions" (forgive me for the label) members of our little group, and they have done more to drive me away from their perspective than anything. It's a healthy exercise to occasionally stop and survey just who's in the boat with you, so to speak. Sometimes you realize that you're in the wrong boat.

[Rooster7]

TJ,

 

"...only rarely do they slip up and allow their true opinions to be 'known' as they did after Sept 11 (only later to quickly back away from the remarks)."

 

How do you know what is their "true opinions" verses a real "slip up"? Why do you want to portray Christian "fundamentalists" as hateful? I think you make some awful assumptions about people's motives.

 

Furthermore, even if they didn't back away from their original comments - What is hateful about them? They believe God to be righteous. They believe homosexuality is an affront to God. So they (Robertson and Farwell) postulated out loud that perhaps God removed his hand of protection from a nation that had been previously blessed. Anything concluded beyond their own words is the twisting thinking of others.

[Rooster7]

Disclaimer - By the way, I don't recall the exact words that Robertson or Farwell used. I just know the basic premise.

[OldGreyEagle]

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/14/Falwell.apology/

 

I posted this on September 17, 2001, it still work

 

 

(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[tjhammer]

Falwell to Robertson's agreement: "I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.'"

 

Falwell said he believes the ACLU and other organizations "which have attempted to secularize America, have removed our nation from its relationship with Christ on which it was founded." Sound familiar?Falwell continues: "I therefore believe that that created an environment which possibly has caused God to lift the veil of protection which has allowed no one to attack America on our soil since 1812," he said.OK, now Rooster, by me reporting what these folks said, I am "portraying them as hateful"? And just how different is this from "Rev" Phelps standing at a funeral with a "God Hates Fags" poster? (Not much different, I would say, just less distasteful.) How much different is this from the BSA saying to gay Scouts and Scouters that they are inherently immoral? (Again, not much different, BSA's fundamentalist message is just even less distastefully stated.)

 

And further, it's amazing to me that inside of one short post you can both distance yourself from these people ('hateful message') and embrace them at the same time ('maybe they're right'). I can only suppose that this message is their "true opinion", and surely you can agree that is likely, since you (who's opinions expressed on this board are not often that dissimilar from these folks) seem to be embracing the possibility that their statements are fair and accurate of a vengeful/righteous God.

 

(Note: Please don't take my observations too personally... I have come to respect you as a fellow Scouter with good intentions, I just don't agree with many of your positions... in a "love the messenger, hate the message/love the sinner, hate the sin" kinda way . This post is not intended to ignite a flame war, and I suspect our opinions of each other are pretty similar. Nor do I seek to demonize Falwell or fundamentalist Christians, I just question whether the majority of Christians have as much in common with these "leaders" as they think they do.)(This message has been edited by tjhammer)

[OldGreyEagle]

God has been protecting us since 1812? What was Gettysburg, Antietam, and the lot. What was the Alamo and the Mexican-American War? And finally what was Pearl Harbor?

 

Where does the notion that the US is specifically blessed by God come from? God protected us but the heck with the French, Russians, et al?

 

I find this a bit like the baseball player who crosses himself before he steps in the batters box, my father used to say that only helps if your good, especially when the pitcher crosses himself before taking the mound.

[SR540Beaver]

TJ,

 

Almost every culture, society and religion throughout recorded history has seen homosexuality as deviant and immoral. It has only been in the last 20 years that the push has been on to accept homosexuality as "normal". Before you think I'm a gay basher, my best friend from college is gay and my sister is a lesbian. I'm well acquainted with the lifestyle. While I love them both dearly, I don't believe that their lifestyle is normal. Why people are gay is a mystery that may never be solved. And what people want to do in the privacy of their own home is their business that I don't care to stick my nose into. I don't go around touting my heterosexual sexuality and activities to everyone I meet and I don't want them to do it either. Bottom line for me is that it is deviant and immoral and if a private organization wants to exclude people like that, it is fine with me. Thru history and even today, the majority of people have disapproved, but have not gone out in lynching parties looking for gay people. It is the gays themseleves who have forced the issue and are reaping their own harvest. Sure, they are slowly making "advancements", but do you really want that? Really? What is next as we begin to break down the boundaries of society that has developed over thousands of years? What happens when the Man/Boy Love Association starts up a movement for us to accept that their lifestyle is "normal" and we should all be tolerant? They honestly believe that sexual relations between men and young boys is beneficial to the boy. Sometimes you have to draw a line in the sand and say...here, and no more.

[red feather]

Phelps and his crew were recently in my home town shouting whatever they were, the counter demo started etc. etc. When asked why they were in town they responded 'publicity'.

 

No real message just noise, looking for others willing to give up their own thought processing and allow others to think for them.

 

R7, sometimes I do despair. Value based, value based, value based. Remember 5 and a half billion people can't be all wrong.

 

Hope all have a politically correct period of the year.

 

Yis

[ScoutParent]

In my earlier post I was referring to the signs Phelps and his people were carrying not Robertson and Falwell's comments. RedFeather, first you talk about giving up your thought processes and then you wish us a politically correct period--talk about irony. What do you think being politically correct is besides acting in a mindless manner based on man's idea? There is a real idea they are trying to express which I don't disagree with at all; just the manner in which they chose to express it. TJ, Romans 1:24 is an excellent passage on this topic--it shows very clearly where God stands on these issues.