Unpleasant Story

[OldGreyEagle]

KS,

 

I know what you mean about the pedophiles seemingly always have a truck load of kiddie porn. I would like to know if serial rapists also always have porn.

 

As far as a few kids needing a whack so they dont ruin other peoples times, I think that is an excllent idea. I think a few wives probably need a few whacks as well so they learn their place and if their husbands are'nt man enough to do it, then society should form discipline patrols who will go around and give a few whacks to all of those who deserve it, man, woman or child. BTW, I will be the Chairman of deciding who gets whacked.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Rooster7]

I submit this...

 

Any man who's subjected himself to pornography knows the answer to OGE's question (or rather his implied implication). The answer is YES - pornography further encourages our depravity. Anyone who denies this truism is a liar and every man knows it.

[OldGreyEagle]

(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[ScoutParent]

Yes, serial rapists also have porn. Homosexuals use porn shops as meeting places. Many independent studies have documented the secondary effects of pornography on a society. Areas where porn shops open have increases of crime in the 80% range; most involving assaults, sexual assaults, rapes and pedophilia.

 

Spanking a child is not akin to spanking an adult and is not a fair comparison. Children and adults do not think the same. Children are not miniature adults; they are children. I have given my son a spanking on occassion and he is a well adjusted, Christian, honor student--how horrible! What a terrible foundation to give him in life!

[OldGreyEagle]

All spanking does is teach children that physical violence is Ok when you are bigger and stronger than your victim.

 

Your son may be a model human being, but its inpsite of, rather than because of, spankings.

 

Of course thats just my opinion

 

My comment on pornography comes from the fact that when pedophiles are arrested, its almost always reported the authorities found kiddie porn in his residence. When a rapist is arrested, I havent heard that pornography was found. Interesting how its reported

(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[berkshirescouter]

I have to comment on spanking.

I read a book when my son was born called 'Dare to discipline' It was a 100 plus page book with all but one page on when not to hit a child on that one page was a very small list. When the child is in danger (very small kid and hot stove was the example I think) and the other was attacking parental authority. I used that book and had to spank my son less then 5 times since he was about 6. He is 15 and I havn't hit him since he was 9 or ten. Spanking should be only a last resort. If one slap on the rear does not do the trick I felt that more would not (It always worked). That is my kid, some require more control then others and too much control could be a problem. I do not agree that any spanking at all is not good. But if you have not installed values by the time the child is 5 or 6 no amount of spanking will help. BTW the rest of the book was very good. It stessed the value of the word no.

 

On the porn issue, I don't know. I do know there was quite a lot of it on the Sub I was on in the Navy and non of the crew had ever gotten in any trouble. Maybe all sex offenders had porn but not every one who reads porn is a sex offender.

[SR540Beaver]

OGE,

 

I have to disagree with you on spanking. My parents are two of the most wonderful, loving, caring and Godly people you could find on this planet. My respect and admiration for them is endless. (I am 45 years old.) My dad was a very patient man and slow to anger. He would give you several warnings when you were doing something against the rules. If you were stupid enough to keep doing waht you were told not to, off came the belt. My dad was a Marine vet from WWII and knew the meaning of the word commitment. Once the belt came off, he intended to use it. I can honestly say that I deserved every spanking I got....and they were not that many. And they left a lasting impression on me. Not that it was OK to hit others, but that authority was to be respected and submitted to. Even though I was spanked as a child, I have never once in my entire life raised my hand to another person. Not once. I've never been in a fight. Most of my friends were raised the same way. Having a 9 year old son who is being raised in an environment where spanking is practically taboo, I can see a huge difference in the behavior of kids of my day and the kids of today. There is much less respect for authority. I have to remind my son a lot that our family is not a democracy and he does not always get a vote. In one ear and out the other. The few times he has had a swat or spanking, he acted so much better for a much longer time than when I try to follow all of the politically correct child psychology mumbo jumbo of today. We are setting our kids up for a huge fall in adulthood with sports where scores are not kept and events where everyone gets a participation aaward. Kids need discipline and loss and failure in their lives just as much as they need a warm hug and winning. Real life has ups and downs and we protect them from it to their detriment. The crap they can get away with today is not going to fly with their employer someday and they will be shocked that the boss wasn't concerned about their self esteem.

[evmori]

"Dare to Discpline" is an excellent book and should be required reading for ALL parents.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[OldGreyEagle]

In just a few short entries we have gone from a few slaps on the butt to using a belt. I understand its all opinion and personal feelings and I respect that.

 

When I read your entry KW, I smiled, my father was a Marine as well. A DI at Cherry Point during WWII. He kept his old Dress Uniform belt (about 4 inches wide, or so I thought) hanging in the garage as a silent reminder of who was boss and what would happen if you crossed the boss. 13 years of Catholic School education replete with kneeling on my knuckles and holding soup cans in both hands with arms fully extended for 5 minutes while I worried about what was going to happen when I got home taught me very little.

 

Now, my parents were married 50 years before my mother passed away and no more dedicated husband could any woman have had, especially in her last years when multiple strokes changed her ability to do much of anything. He was only doing what he thought was right, I understand that.

 

And while I do not agree with spanking, in no way does that mean I am against discipline. I understand what you mean about a child learning about loss and failure. I would also add taking responsibility for your actions as well, this concept seems quite foreign to many.

 

Scoutparent is justifiably proud of her son, I am proud of my son, the Eagle Scout, whom many people say is the most polite well mannered, well behaved young man they know. Scoutparent spanked, I/we (my wife did contribute as well) didnot. But we did teach responsibility for actions.

 

Many paths to the same end I guess.

 

 

[sctmom]

Scoutparent,

Where did you get the statistic of crime going up 80% in areas where porn stores open up?

 

I live in a major metropolation area. There is an "adult" store in the downtown area. They were getting so many customers from one of the richest suburbs they decided to open a store up in the suburb. I worked in that suburb for years before and after the store opened. I NEVER heard any statistics or news of the crime rate going up in that area. Housing prices continue to rise to unbelievable amounts.

 

 

OGE,

Seems that I have heard of reports of rapists having porn, usually when it is a horrible case of torture or a serial rapists.

 

As someone else said, all pedophiles may have porn but not everyone who has porn is a pedophile or other type of criminal. Just like owning a gun doesn't make you go shoot people, owning pornography doesn't make you commit sex crimes. It may contribute to them acting out their fantasies, but these people are sick already.

[Rooster7]

"owning pornography doesn't make you commit sex crimes."

 

Owning "anything" is NOT the cause of anything else. But let's be intellectually honest and examine what's really going on here. Grown men are viewing pictures of attractive, naked women posing seductively and/or performing sex acts on themselves and others. For what purpose does a man do this, one must ask oneself. Obviously, these men are being aroused by these images. Clearly, they derive sexual pleasure by viewing these materials. You're a fool if you don't think these images are powerful. Any man who willing subjects himself to these materials is playing with fire. With very few exceptions, men who regularly view pornography become consumed by it. I don't have scientific data. Here's what I do have - common sense and 43 years of experience as a male. I know how pornography affects me. I know how it affects every man I have ever met. And every man reading these words knows exactly what I'm talking about. A man who can habitually view pornography and not sink further into depravity, is about as common as the two-cigarette per day smoker. It might be possible, but it's very unlikely. If you're not a man, then I submit that you cannot fully comprehend or appreciate my words. As is the case for all addictions, one's urges are never completely and fully satisfied. One's appetite increases. With each passing episode, the addict requires a stronger drug, drink, fix, etc. The frequency between binges becomes shorter and shorter. Inevitably, the addict will become so consumed and depraved that there is no line that he isn't willing to cross to fulfill his craving. No doubt, a consumer of pornography might ask me - "Then why haven't I become a rapists?" My answer is this - One, just because you're not a rapist doesn't mean you haven't debased yourself and others. And two, by God's grace (age, circumstances, length of one's life, etc.), not every would-be rapist has the opportunity.

 

Bottom line - Pornography feeds a very ugly and dark part of a man's nature. Show me a man who says it's not so, and I'll show you a liar.

 

I am not the best administrator of spankings, but I believe they are appropriate - and in many cases, necessary. In the past, my children provoked me to spank them when they were blatantly disobedient. Unfortunately, this behavior also made me the most upset (i.e., angry) with them. So, I had two rules - I used my hand (so I knew exactly how much force was being applied), and two, I only struck them three times (so I did not inadvertently abuse the punishment). Once a child reaches a certain age (for my boys, it was around 13), spankings become counterproductive. I want my children to be disciplined, but I don't want to degrade them in the process. Spankings are good as long as they are used to discipline a child who is young enough to appreciate a stinging butt and the consternation of one's parent. However, as the child grows older, spankings tend to produce fewer stings and a great deal of exasperation. Spankings do not deliver a message of discipline to young boys (13 and older). They will resent you for treating them as a child. They will focus on a message of humiliation and rebel even more. JMHO.

 

If you only have one or two children, you may never have had to spank your children. Consider yourself blessed, but don't assume that it was because of some great parenting technique that you employed. That is to say, every child is different. Read Dr. James Dobson's book (can't remember the name) about the strong-will child verses the compliant child. He knows what's he talking about.

 

OGE, I understand and agree that some adults cross the line when disciplining their children (or worse, other peoples' children). However, despite your misgivings, have you considered the possibility that you might not have the character you possess today if it were not for those disciplinarians in your past? No doubt, it sounds as if you will be able to give quite a few examples of some unnecessary punishments. Nevertheless, I submit this possibility (tell me if I'm wrong) - Your father, as imperfect as he may have been, instilled many good character traits in you. Furthermore, you can probably point to a number of boys/men that you knew that did not have a father who disciplined them properly or at all and are now paying a price for it. Spankings (and I hope that's what most folks are talking about) can be used effectively if they are delivered out of love.

 

[RobK]

Regarding spanking, God approves of it in no uncertain terms, as He inspired Solomon, the wisest man ever, to write:

 

He who spares his rod hates his son,

But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.

 

Proverbs 13:24 (New King James)

 

OGE writes: All spanking does is teach children that physical violence is Ok when you are bigger and stronger than your victim.

 

If so, then why does God so clearly approve of it? Only when a child is spanked unjustly, or without a clear understanding of why he is being spanked will he learn that "violence is OK". Punishment must be consistent and swiftly administered to be effective.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

How do I know what made me what I am, was it my father's discipline or his love, or both? Was it my mothers love or my sibling relationships? Was it becomming an Eagle Boy Scout or being the first boy in my class to serve mass because I learned the latin prayers first (told you I was old)I dont know. I also dont know how many nights I lie awake in my bed swearing to myself with tears in my eyes that when I had children, I would not slap, spank, beat, whatever them . My youngest brother had his share of spankings/beltings as well, he has three girls all doing quite well, and he never spanked them either, we talked about it and agreed we didnt see the point.

 

Had a friend across the street, mother used to whale on him all the time for anything he did wrong. He left home at 18 and did everything he could to embarrras his parents and he would laugh and say "hey , the old lady cant touch me now." Never amounted to anything because he was so wrapped up in doing wrong and not getting beat, his life passed him by.

 

[ScoutParent]

"Where did you get the statistic of crime going up 80% in areas where porn stores open up?"

 

From independent studies done on the subject. It is understood by the legislators that porn shops, strip clubs, etc have a deleterious effect on the areas that house them. That is why these types of businesses can have special restrictions applied to them that other businesses in the area do not. For instance in Shippensburg, Pa, the law is that the porn shop must close by 10pm and is not allowed to conduct business on Sundays. Other examples include restricting them from operating within 1/2 mile of a school bus stop, house, church, business, etc.

 

 

The idea that porn does not alter one's opinion about sex or women is ludicrous. The whole idea of porn is to show sex acts in a loveless, physically gratifying way--PERIOD. It is about the explotation of human beings and in particular, women.

[Rooster7]

OGE,

 

I must say - it does sound as if your dad went too far and/or used his anger to moderate the discipline. I can't defend that. Perhaps he realized that was the case, but never found a way to apologize to you. I don't know your dad...I'm just trying to give him some credit as a loving father. As for your neighbor, his case sounds extreme (i.e., a case of abuse). But just as extreme to me, would be to not spank a child that clearly warranted a spanking (i.e., a child having an uncontrollable fit in a supermarket). I've seen examples of both. I've seen children go out of their way to rebel against mom and dad because they were "paying them back" (as teenagers or adults that left the home). I've also seen children go out of there way to make mom and dad miserable, just because they could get away with it. To me, the answer lies in between the two. Discipline, but do so with a loving heart. For example - I can envision a loving mom or dad, heavy-hearted but resolute, giving a son or daughter a spanking for being insolent or disobedient. On the other hand, I cannot envision a slap in the face as being an act of discipline motivated by love (anger, yes - love, no). Regardless, unless confronted with solid evidence of obvious abuse, the government should keep their hands off families.