ScoutParent Posted November 27, 2002 Share Posted November 27, 2002 Merlyn, I'm sure you are learned enough to know Christians celebrate the birth and the resurrection of Jesus Christ, Lord and Savior. Christians do not celebrate winter or spring solstices. What is curious to me though is what pagan holidays have to do with an atheist's answer about this thursday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted November 27, 2002 Share Posted November 27, 2002 NJ, Actually, Christmas trees are a Christian symbol. I can't remember how it started & don't currently have the resources to locae this info but they are. My point is if a Menorah is allowed why not a manger scene? Both are religious symbols. It should be both or none. Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted November 27, 2002 Share Posted November 27, 2002 The orgination of the dates of Easter and Christmas (the two most holy days of the christian year) has always intrigued me. The two major theories that I have heard are*: 1. Best Place to Hide a Leaf is in a Forest Early christians were a very much persecuted lot. In many areas christians caught worshipping were immediately executed or kept around for Lion fodder. To blend in to the local culture, the holiest of feasts Easter, began to be celebrated in the Spring while non-christians were celebrating the rebirth of the earth. After awhile the pagan religions fell away but christianity held on. 2. If you cant beat them join them If humanity has one common trait, its we love to party (have a good time, feast, whatever). Early church officials were faced with trying to convert a populace that a had a slate of holidays in the old religion while they had none. It was natural to have the new faith's religion align its celebrations with the cultural calender. In the Anglo-Saxon tradition the time around the winter solstice was generally a time of rest, after all in an agrarian economy who can get much done when its dark and cold? The Lords of the Manors developed a tradition of giving a "holiday" at this time as long as a single log burned. This was the Yule log, and the biggest, thickest log was very much desired. It was natural to place Christmas, the celebration of Jesus's birth in this spot, as Easter (the reserection) was already spoken for. All Saints Day (November 1) is another example of a holy day set because of another religion (Druids) Is it important we know the exact date of Jesus's birth and reserection? I dont think so, its so much more important to honor the values, the way of life and afterlife he brought to us. Is it bad christians co-opted pagan holidays? I dont think so, it was a way of survival any way you look at it. But let me be amoung the first to say Happy Holidays and remember The Reason for the Season * I make no claim to historical accuracy, only hearsay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compass Posted November 27, 2002 Share Posted November 27, 2002 evmori, whether a Christmas tree has a Christian or pagan origin is irrelevant at this point. They are absolutely associated with a Christian holiday celebrating the birth of the Messiah. Just because people choose not to pay attention to the angel ornaments or the big star on top doesn't make it otherwise. ScoutParent, good point. The truly dedicated should go the way of their beliefs. Merlyn, I would expect you'd to be at work during normal duty hours this Thursday and Wednesday, 25 December 2002. By the way, roads could be construed as public property. Kiss those Christmas parades goodbye! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sctmom Posted November 27, 2002 Share Posted November 27, 2002 Why would Merlyn not eat turkey? Thanksgiving is to celebrate our country, freedom, etc. Have a good one, however you choose to give thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compass Posted November 27, 2002 Share Posted November 27, 2002 Giving thanks to whom? That is the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutParent Posted November 27, 2002 Share Posted November 27, 2002 Little revision there, Sctmom? Seems like you describe 4th of July, Memorial Day and Veteran's Day, not Thanksgiving. Like it or not the Pilgrim's were Christians who left Europe because of persecution. They celebrated their bounty and blessings from God on that legendary Thanksgiving; not our country or our freedom (sort of predated our country and they weren't so pleased with old England so they were hardly celebrating that either). They were thankful to the Creator for all the blessings He had bestowed upon them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venturer2002 Posted November 27, 2002 Share Posted November 27, 2002 Christians celebrate Christian holidays, Pagans celebrate pagan holidays, and atheists celebrate themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted November 28, 2002 Share Posted November 28, 2002 Compas, How can one celebrate Christmas if one is not a Christian? If it Jesus Christ wasn't born we wouldn't have Christmas! And if an atheist has a Christmas tree then I suspect he isn't really an atheist! Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venturer2002 Posted November 28, 2002 Share Posted November 28, 2002 Or it's not a Christmas Tree per se... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compass Posted November 28, 2002 Share Posted November 28, 2002 evmori: "How can one celebrate Christmas if one is not a Christian? If it Jesus Christ wasn't born we wouldn't have Christmas!" Oh, I quite agree. It's just that people antagonistic to Christianity delight in pointing out earlier pagan celebrations (prior to the Christian era) that occurred during those dates, or pagan practices that resemble today's traditions (giving gifts, Christmas trees, singing hymns, etc.). My point was that, no matter what the origins of certain Christian holidays (Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter and their calendar dates), no matter what the origins of certain traditions (Christmas trees, etc.), that these holidays and activities are absolutely associated with Christian events today. Though, be careful. There is an active movement to disassociate Christ from things we take for granted. Witness the substitution of "BCE" (Before Common Era) for "BC" and "CE" (Common Era) for "AD" in dates. "And if an atheist has a Christmas tree then I suspect he isn't really an atheist!" Please note my posts on November 27, 2002: 10:42:21 AM and 1:02:10 PM. I think I'm pretty clear on this. I don't question someone's stated beliefs here. It's just that I think if someone who feels so strongly in their beliefs (or unbeliefs) should not compromise their (un)beliefs by participating in these traditions in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venturer2002 Posted November 28, 2002 Share Posted November 28, 2002 I wouldn't think any unbeliever would WANT to celebrate the Birth or the Death and Ressurection of our Saviour any more than I would want to frolic around a may-pole! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted November 29, 2002 Share Posted November 29, 2002 Gee, I claim 13 years of Roman Catholic educaiton and I remember in Elementary School doing the May pole thing every yearon May 1. In the Roman Catholic church the month of May is dedicated to Mary. I didnt know the May pole had other meanings. We went around the Pole, sang songs in praise of Mary and saw her life as a role model for ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted November 29, 2002 Share Posted November 29, 2002 May-be it has another meaning and May-be it doesn't! I grew up Catholic, too, OGE & remember the same thing you do about the month of May & the May pole. Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlebillie Posted November 29, 2002 Share Posted November 29, 2002 from http://www.christmas-tree.com/where.html CHRISTMAS TREE TRADITION HAS ANCIENT ORIGINS King Tut never saw a Christmas tree, but he would have understood the tradition which traces back long before the first Christmas, says David Robson, Extension Educator, Horticulture with the Springfield Extension Center. The Egyptians were part of a long line of cultures that treasured and worshipped evergreens. When the winter solstice arrive, they brought green date palm leaves into their homes to symbolize life's triumph over death. The Romans celebrated the winter solstice with a fest called Saturnalia in honor of Saturnus, the god of agriculture. They decorated their houses with greens and lights and exchanged gifts. They gave coins for prosperity, pastries for happiness, and lamps to light one's journey through life. Centuries ago in Great Britain, woods priests called Druids used evergreens during mysterious winter solstice rituals. The Druids used holly and mistletoe as symbols of eternal life, and place evergreen branches over doors to keep away evil spirits. Late in the Middle Ages, Germans and Scandinavians placed evergreen trees inside their homes or just outside their doors to show their hope in the forthcoming spring. Our modern Christmas tree evolved from these early traditions. Legend has it that Martin Luther began the tradition of decorating trees to celebrate Christmas. One crisp Christmas Eve, about the year 1500, he was walking through snow-covered woods and was struck by the beauty of a group of small evergreens. Their branches, dusted with snow, shimmered in the moonlight. When he got home, he set up a little fir tree indoors so he could share this story with his children. He decorated it with candles, which he lighted in honor of Christ's birth. The Christmas tree tradition most likely came to the United States with Hessian troops during the American Revolution, or with German immigrants to Pennsylvania and Ohio, adds Robson. But the custom spread slowly. The Puritans banned Christmas in New England. Even as late as 1851, a Cleveland minister nearly lost his job because he allowed a tree in his church. Schools in Boston stayed open on Christmas Day through 1870, and sometimes expelled students who stayed home. The Christmas tree market was born in 1851 when Catskill farmer Mark Carr hauled two ox sleds of evergreens into New York City and sold them all. By 1900, one in five American families had a Christmas tree, and 20 years later, the custom was nearly universal. Christmas tree farms sprang up during the depression. Nurserymen couldn't sell their evergreens for landscaping, so they cut them for Christmas trees. Cultivated trees were preferred because they have a more symmetrical shape then wild ones. Six species account for about 90 percent of the nation's Christmas tree trade. Scotch pine ranks first, comprising about 40 percent of the market, followed by Douglas fir which accounts for about 35 percent. The other big sellers are noble fir, white pine, balsam fir and white spruce. Premission was granted for Internet use by --- Written by: David Robson, Extension Educator, Horticulture; Springfield Extension Center Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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