Religion-Atheism?

[packsaddle]

Trevorum wrote, "3. The father should be reminded that BSA does require belief in a god or gods."

 

I add...even if that god is a rock or a piece of wood. The concept of reverence can apply to a very broad set of 'gods', even some that are merely conceptual.

[NJCubScouter]

Docrwm, are you saying that one who believes in deism does not meet the membership requirements of the BSA? If so, I disagree. In deism there is still a "higher power", and even though it may not be recognizable as such to the organized religions, it is still a higher power. That is all that the BSA requires.

[Rooster7]

I'm not going to argue what the actual requirement is...I'll leave that to the folks who like to parse words, find loopholes, and employ other means to extract their preferences. But I will say this - If the folks on this board are right, the requirement has become meaningless. If the "entity" that one must show reverence has become so undefined and ambiguous that boys can revere a rock and pass the requirement; then we've stepped off the mountain somewhere. I just don't believe that Baden Powell and others intended this to be. And if they did, then I've lost respect for them and this organization. I can disagree with many folks as to who God is, but if/when the argument becomes whether or not God is a rock or a tree - then we've step inside of an arena that I don't even what to approach.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Where've you been Rooster7? The rock or stream nonsense has been around 17 years.

 

http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/bsa-god_policy.html

Questions and Answers

June 7, 1991

...

Q. Some people maintain that God is a tree, a rock or a stream. Would a person believing such be eligible to be a member of Scouting?

 

The BSA does not seek to interpret God or religion. The Scout Oath states a requirement for a Scout to observe a duty to God, and the Scout Law requires a Scout to be reverent. Again, interpretation is the responsibility of the Scout, his parents and religious leaders.

[evmori]

God not god. Big difference.

[NJCubScouter]

I've always thought that the "a tree, rock or stream" language was a poor choice of words. I wonder whether anyone actually told the BSA they believe in a "a tree, rock or stream" or if the BSA selected that as a seemingly ridiculous example to show just how far they were willing to be tolerant. A better example might be something that a lot of people actually believe, for example, that "nature" (or, if you will, all the rocks and trees and streams and animals and everything) are equivalent to God; or that "God is found in everything"; or many other types of belief in a non-anthropomorphized deity. Many people in the world, and in this country, believe some version of this, including some Native Americans, some Wiccans, deists, etc. Why not use those as the examples of what it's ok to believe within the BSA? They have the advantage of not sounding ridiculous, and being actually believed in by substantial numbers of people. I suspect that these beliefs might not attract the respect of some on this forum, but they are ok with the BSA. (Hey, that rhymes!)

 

(In previewing this message, I realized that Wikipedia markup, which I have become more used to, does not work in this forum!)

[packsaddle]

Think of the sacred rivers of various world religions. Sacred mountains. Sacred trees and forests. I submit that if a river can be sacred, so can a drop of water (witness the baptism in some faiths). To the extent that these are actually objects of worship (i.e. river gods) then I think BSA is, in fact, trying to be all inclusive. If anyone is uncomfortable with this I don't understand why unless it's because they think they've cornered the market on true faith. There can be sacred underwear as far as I'm concerned. Rooster7 can think this renders the requirement meaningless. Fine. Ignore it then. Otherwise, draw the line that most scouters can agree on and start throwing out those who cross it.

Tell me what the line is. Define it in a way that is clear and unambiguous...and exclusive of someone who worships a river spirit.

[skeptic]

Many of you may have read Heinlien's STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND. I am reminded of the book with these discussions, as the main character (forgot name), who was human, but born and raised on Mars by Martians, and returned to Earth by a later exploration party, often said something to the effect "Thou Art God". The premise in the book, as far as I could ascertain anyway, was the idea that Martians believed God was in everyone, thus the expression, "Thou Art God". The problems arose though from an apparent ritual of what we would call cannibalism, something about becoming one with the other on death. The idea though that God is part of us all, and we are thus part of each other really gives a different perspective on things.

[packsaddle]

Valentine Michael Smith. Good book.

[NJCubScouter]

Skeptic, you raise an interesting issue, as to whether a belief that "God is in all of us" (and nowhere else) would qualify as a belief in a "higher power" in the BSA's view. It might not, as it would basically mean that we human beings are the "higher power", or at least that we are "tied" with other things for being the "higher power". I'm not saying there is anything wrong with this belief, just that I question whether it would satisfy the BSA's "religion requirement".

[packsaddle]

Wow, I think I'm beginning to grok humans.

[skeptic]

Yep, the idea of God in us is not necessarily so far fetched. Depending on how you might interpret biblical writings, there are passages that hint at such an idea, starting with the "and God created Man in His own image". While I have gotten pretty rusty on remembering many quotes, it seems to me there are others that most of us would find familiar and could possibly be interpreted in such a manner. Those on this board with better credentials can possibly note them.

 

As far as the scouts go, I do not personally see that being a negative, as it shows a deeper spiritual understanding than simply "God exists" or some such thing.

[NJCubScouter]

Skeptic, I was not saying I thought the BSA would have a problem with the idea that "God is in us", in general. The problem would be with the idea that "God is only in us." The first concept is compatible, and indeed part of, many religions including Christianity and Judaism. The second concept excludes a "higher power" (meaning, higher than us) and therefore is probably not ok with the BSA. As I said, I think this would be different than a religion or belief system that says something like "God is in the Universe" or "God is in nature" (or, God is the Universe or God is nature), as in each of those cases, there is a belief in a "higher power", amorphous and impersonal though it may be.

[Rooster7]

Okay then - suppose for a moment that I take this discussion seriously. Per the ponderings of this board, the growing consensus appears to be:

 

A boy ought to believe that something exists and revere it.

 

And apparently one can revere and be obedient to God, oneself, a rock, a river, a tree, or even that Lucky Charms guy. And surely, per the great and many introspective thoughts recently shared on this subject, one could show that reverence in a number of ways. I imagine, if one found a tree perched over the Potomac on a Sunday morning, he could swing from it while eating a bowl of cereal, and thus pay tribute to a half dozen faiths all at once. Perhaps the BSA should create a metal for that.

 

[packsaddle]

Why...Thanks, Rooster. The answer is yes.

But BSA would need a superconducting supercollider or something to create a new metal. I suspect that'd probably be above their pay grade.