Religion-Atheism?

[ASM7]

This piece was written in 1992, but sheds some light on the grounding of religion in Scouting by Baden-Powell.

 

http://www.naums.org/reverant/HISTORICAL_PERSPECTIVE_REVERENCE.htm

[ASM1]

Well, here is a touchy subject. But I will put in my 2 cents worth. As you all know, Scouting leave an aweful lot to interpretation to the rules and by-laws. It only takes one cage rattler to expose an Atheist to BSA and they are history. ie.. The case in recent news about the Eagle Scout. I say this is bogus! If you alway keep an open mind, and remember that the United States of America was founded on the beleif of freedom of religion, one has to see this is a flawed policy. I am not an Atheist so don't anyone get any ideas. I am a devoted Methodist. But if you have ever studied Atheism you will see that do not beleive in a one devine being. It is not that they do not beleive in a devine entity. They do beleive in a devine entity. Much like the American Indians. One Earth, one Universe, one Soul. All is life. How can this beleif be wrong? I know that as a Scoutmaster, I will never expose an Atheist, I will insist he accepts and speaks God, but keep God in his own way, and to himself.

 

ASM1

[red feather]

Understanding the diversity is the key.

 

To qoute:

"Why should a scout pledge his Duty to God? in the words of Baden-Powell:

 

"Religion is essential to happiness. This is not a mere matter of going to church, knowing

Bible history, or understanding theology. Religion... means recognizing who and what is God, secondly, making the best of the life that He has given one and doing what He wants of us. This is mainly doing something for other people."

 

Regardless of title or name of the church one supports or follows, it is all one. Regardless of the name one calls on to invoke the Supreme Being, it is all one. It is the belief of such a concept that ties all together. Sad that conflict occurs from this.

 

Diversity is our world, who is to say that one voice is to fit all people? That is the question and the answer.

 

YIS

[CubsRgr8]

Thank you, ASM7, for tracking down that quote from BP. It certainly sets the record straight regarding his intentions when Duty to God was included in the Scout Oath. Duty to God is still present in every version of the Scout Oath I've run across and there is a significant amount of space devoted to the topic on the WOS website.

 

Also, it seems to me, ASM1, that you are describing a deist, or even an agnostic, but not an atheist. I venture to say that an atheist would deny the existence of any entity described as One Earth, One Universe, One Soul aka the Great Spirit.

 

[Rooster7]

Diversity is our world, who is to say that one voice is to fit all people? That is the question and the answer.

 

I hope you are not implying that atheism is a part of that diversity. If so, BSA does not share or support this thinking. I pray they never do.

 

As for, "Regardless of the name one calls on to invoke the Supreme Being, it is all one." This is called Universalism. Explain to me how my faith is leading to the same god as the Wiccans, when my Bible tells me that I cannot worship the One and Only true God and the god of idols? Your post will score a thousand points with folks who want to feel warm and fuzzy, while singing to the tune, "We are the World". However, there is only one reality. I firmly believe that Christ Jesus is the Son of God. If I'm wrong, then my future is very uncertain. Yet, I am not unnerved because I know that the God of the people is real. Many people embrace Universalism. It allows them to do as they please (and/or recognize God as they please) without worrying about the consequences because "all paths lead to God". This belief allows many folks to sleep soundly at night. However - Does it reflect reality? In short, if the religions of which you speak contradict one another - if they in fact not only lead in different directions but in opposite directions, how can they possibly lead to the same place? My God given common sense tells me that what you propose is not possible.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[sctmom]

"Explain to me how my faith is leading to the same god as the Wiccans, when my Bible tells me that I cannot worship the One and Only true God and the god of idols?"

 

If you worship the One and Only true God then there is no "god of idols". Why do you refer to gods that do not exist? I don't think your wording is really what you meant.

 

[Rooster7]

"Explain to me how my faith is leading to the same god as the Wiccans, when my Bible tells me that I cannot worship the One and Only true God and the god of idols?"

 

If you worship the One and Only true God then there is no "god of idols". Why do you refer to gods that do not exist? I don't think your wording is really what you meant.

 

Perhaps it was worded funny. My point is - Bible teaching tells us that we (Christians) cannot worship pagan gods (and/or the god of idols). Furthermore, if we do, we are in affect denying the One and Only true God (the God of Abraham) by doing so. In my first quote, I was trying to convey that the two (the God of the Bible - and - the god of idols) were mutually exclusive by Christian teaching. Thus, per the Christian faith, "the all paths lead to the same God" theology is heresy.

 

[Venturer2002]

"If you worship the One and Only true God then there is no 'god of idols'. Why do you refer to gods that do not exist? I don't think your wording is really what you meant. "

 

 

Actually, he's right , considering this scriptural passage:

"For YHWH your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great god"

(Deut. 10:17)

 

In considering also the 10 Commandments (really many stuck together in similar groupings to help you remember them) think of numero uno: I Am The Lord Thy God; Thou Shalt have no other gods Before Me.

 

The One True God also said this on earth, as Jesus: "I am the way, the truth, and the light. None shall come to the father except through me" and I think that's more in line with what he was talking about.

 

 

 

 

[red feather]

Hope all had a good Thanksgiving.

 

To paraphrase: Thus per the ____ (fil in blank) faith, "the(n) all paths lead to the same___(fill in blank)" theology is heresy.

 

Once again understanding the diversity is the key and answer.

 

Breaking down the quote from BP from the first posting. Nothing indicates a specific religion or belief. BP a well traveled person had to have been exposed to many religions of the world and allowed for the many beliefs of the world. 5 and a half billion people can't be all wrong.

 

YIS

[le Voyageur]

I'm in agreement with BP, my only exception is in the use of the word religion. This implys submitting oneself to a fixed and rigid theology whereas, spritualism would be more apt. Spritualism allows one to explore their own relationship with their Creator without the fixed boundries of organized religion.

For myself, I would love to see, not only the Wiccans, but also Native Americans create their own programs of spiritual studys which could, and should be included in BSA religious award programs....

[Jei64822]

"It is not that they do not beleive in a devine entity." - Regarding Atheists

 

That is a bold statement. I can assure you there are Atheists that do not believe in anything divine

[Docrwm]

Always a touchy subject. The definition of Atheist is the active denial of the existence of a Devine being or beings. It is derived from a - meaning not or no and theist - meaning higher entity (roughly). Deism on the other hand is more in line with the American Indian perspective because for the deist, God is not involved in the world in the same personal way as for the theist. The definition offered earlier in the thread is of a theist who believes there is something devine. The quote from Baden Powell makes it clear that Theism or the holding of a specific religious belief is required but merely deism and Atheism is not acceptable at all.

 

Finally, Freedom of Religion also comes with the right of free assembly and association. Which means that private groups can set and enforce membership requirements - including religious ones. No one has to be a member of BSA.(This message has been edited by docrwm)

[gcan]

wow, OK- this is new terretory for me. So that brings me to a question (or three)..

 

What would BSA rules have me do in each of these cases?

1. We have lots of people that believe in the concept of God, but aren't baptized in any religion, don't adhere to one religion, ect, but they conced that God exists.

2. We have a family where dad is nothing, mom is raising the kids Wiccan. One of them took to it, the other kid didn't care for it.

3. My son is being raised Catholic at home. His sort-of-involved father loudly and often proclaims his atheism when the topic comes up, and has said some things at scout meetings to that effect.

[Trevorum]

gcan,

 

1. No action is needed. BSA does not require membership, or even active participation, in any church.

2. No action is needed. BSA does not define what constitutes belief in God. Wicca is just fine.

3. The father should be reminded that BSA does require belief in a god or gods.

[Novice_Cubmaster]

Hi Gcan,

 

Re #3:

3. My son is being raised Catholic at home. His sort-of-involved father loudly and often proclaims his atheism when the topic comes up, and has said some things at scout meetings to that effect

 

If your son says he's a Catholic - it doesn't matter what the sort-of dad believes or not.

 

If "dad" is making claims about what your son believes, your son may have to politely & publicly state that this isn't the case.

 

NC