Atheist leader to be expelled from BSA

[Compass]

(This message has been edited by Compass)

[Bob White]

"That's why Chicago dropped all its BSA charters rather than try and defend it in court."

 

The city government of Chicago was a charter organization of a scout unit? I don't think so.

 

In fact the City of Chicago did try to bar the use of public fascilities by scouting units and that move was challenged in court and found by the Illinois State Supreme Court to be a violation of civil rights and overturned the city councils ordinance (and the ACLU defended the BSA's right to use those fascilities).

 

By the way I understandThe Chigaco Police Department still sponsors a youth law enforcement unit through the Learning for Life program.

 

As far as my opinion not carrying weight, I never claimed it did. I simply pointed out the facts as supported by the highest court in the land. All you keep repeating are rumors and threats. None of which have been proven.

 

Your not just singing a one note song, but it's a flat note.

 

Bob White

 

 

 

 

[evmori]

Bob,

Thanks for the correction on the charter. Excellent post, by the way.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

bob white:

>The city government of Chicago was a charter organization of a scout unit? I don't think so.

 

Oh, yes. It chartered 28 units back around 1998:

 

http://www.datalounge.com/datalounge/news/record.html?record=2734

 

This was also back when the BSA discriminated in its Explorer program. One week after Chicago dropped its BSA charters, the BSA announced that career Explorers were moving to Learning for Life. See the Poloncarz & Winkler case.

 

It started when a man was illegally excluded from the city's Law Department Explorer post, ironically enough.

 

>By the way I understand The Chigaco Police Department still sponsors a youth law enforcement unit through the Learning for Life program.

 

They can NOW, because the ACLU suit caused the BSA to stop discriminating in their Explorer program. It wasn't the BSA's idea, they were quite happy to have municipal police departments practice unlawful religious discrimination on their behalf; it took the ACLU to keep them honest.

 

The new lawsuit is a larger version of the Chicago suit, and the ACLU will win for the same reasons; the US government can't charter BSA units that have religious requirements for membership.

 

You may think it's a one-note song, but it won easily before.

[Rooster7]

Merlyn,

 

Just for the sake of argument, let's say you're right. What's the point of posting here? You're obviously spitting into the wind. The vast majority of posters on this forum not only disagree, but they passionately disagree. What do you think the end result of your postings will be? Do you honestly think you'll change enough minds that you'll bring about change within BSA? Or, do you simply want to irritate people who disagree with you? I must say I have drawn the conclusion that it's the latter. If you think you're exposing us as a bunch of bigots, then so be it (people can believe whatever they want). Regardless, may I suggest that you move on to something else - perhaps something more productive and nobler?

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

Rooster7:

>Just for the sake of argument, let's say you're right.

 

Would you mind addressing the specific statement quoted?

 

"Anybody that doesn't believe in god isn't a good citizen, and that if an atheist found a wallet on the ground they would pick it up, plunder the money and throw the wallet back on the ground."

 

Not "for the sake of argument", but what is your actual opinion? Is it bigoted to brand all atheists as "not good citizens" and dishonest?

 

Now, if some BSA official had made the same statement about Jews or Catholics, I'm sure you'd easily agree that it was a bigoted statement; yet you've twice avoided giving a direct answer to the same statement against atheists.

 

Do you see why I think the BSA actively promotes hatred against atheists, and all government charters need to be removed by lawsuits? Do you see why I think no public school should use the BSA's "Learning for Life" program, since it's headed by people like Glen Schmidt?

 

Apparently not.

[DeLukas]

"Reasonable discourse is harder, pal."

"Anybody that doesn't believe in god isn't a good citizen, and that if an atheist found a wallet on the ground they would pick it up, plunder the money and throw the wallet back on the ground."

 

 

(This message has been edited by DeLukas)

[acco40]

Bob White, Rooster, Merlyn, et. al.

 

The crux of the Supreme Court decision concerning BSA was if it was really a private or public institution. If private, they have the legal right to make their own membership rules. If public, they fall under a different yardstick. The SC deemed the BSA a private organization. Some disputed this (for example tax payer money helps fund the National Jamboree, public institutions such as public schools sponsor/charter units, etc.). I believe Merlyn's position is that you can't have it both ways. You can't claim the BSA is a private organization and can set its own membership rules AND receive government support. From a legal perspective, whether the BSA is a "good" organization or not is irrelevant.

 

Rooster, if Merlyn thinks he is right, he has every right to post. The fact that the majority feel one way or the other does not matter.

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

"Anybody that doesn't believe in god isn't a good citizen, and that if an atheist found a wallet on the ground they would pick it up, plunder the money and throw the wallet back on the ground."

 

Let's be honest and clear here. This statement was an opinion made by one Scouter to another during a training course. People need to quit giving the impression that this is an official policy from BSA headquarters. It was one single solitary individual's opinion stated in the heat of an argument betwen two people. Period! To try to make it sound like this is the opinion of the majority of BSA Scouters against atheists is absurd and dishonest.(This message has been edited by kwc57)

[Compass]

DeLukas:

 

 

Losing the argument means calling people names and getting out the crayons, doesn't it?

 

By the way, I noticed you reprinted Merlyn_LeRoy's question. I answered it for myself earlier, but apparently neither of you two gentlemen noticed. My answer was:

 

"I can't verify the accuracy of the original quote, but I can comment: no, I do not agree with the original statement and characterization of atheists."

 

If you guys are going to poll each and every one of us, it's going to take awhile.

 

While we're in to answering questions, how about you two gentlemen addressing one of two questions I asked of Merlyn_LeRoy earlier (you answered one, sir, but not the second). That question was:

 

"At what point did you realize that the Boy Scout program had such values?"(This message has been edited by Compass)

[Bob White]

Accu40,

A common misunderstanding is that as a private organization we do not have rights to taxpayer funded services and facilities, and that is not true. That argument has been tested in several states and in all cases the courts found in favor of the BSA. Remember that we are taxpayers and have the same rights to taxpayer funded services and facilities as any other person or group.

 

I know of no scout unit charterd by a public school. In every case that I know of the unit is chartered by a parents organization made of parents that attend a particular school. That is a huge difference from being chartered by the school. The school sponsors the extra-curricular activities such as sports teams, speech and drama clubs, the chess club etc... But the parents associations are volunteer groups that are legally independent of the school itself. They are no different than any other community organization and have every legal right and opportunity to charter a scouting program regardless of the hiring or admitting policies of the school.

 

If the school does not want the scouts to meet there because of the values requirements of scouting that's fine, but they must turn away all requests from other outside groups to use the facility or they are in violation of the law.

 

As I pointed out previously the City of Chicago tried to bar scouts from using public schools and the Chicago Park System properties for meetings and activities based on the argument that they were a private organization that did not meet the city's anti-discrimination laws. That was reversed by the courts as unconstitutional.

 

So the argument about scout units and taxpayer based support is groundless.

 

Bob White

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

>"Anybody that doesn't believe in god isn't a good citizen, and that if an atheist found a wallet on the ground they would pick it up, plunder the money and throw the wallet back on the ground."

 

>Let's be honest and clear here.

 

Yes, let's.

 

>This statement was an opinion made by one Scouter to another during a training course.

 

The "one scouter" being a high up BSA official.

 

>People need to quit giving the impression that this is an official policy from BSA headquarters.

 

I haven't been doing that; I've quoted it as being from Glen Schmidt, the dist. comm. chairman for the Chief Seattle district.

 

On the other hand, you just quoted it as being from "one scouter", as if the person who said it was just some scouter.

 

>It was one single solitary individual's opinion stated in the heat of an argument betwen two people. Period! To try to make it sound like this is the opinion of the majority of BSA Scouters against atheists is absurd and dishonest.

 

It would be, which is why I've been careful to identify the speaker. I haven't seen many people here decrying Schmidt's defamation of all atheists as not being good citizens, so what kind of impression do you think that will have?

 

If someone in a group says no Jew can be a good citizen, and few (if any) of the other members of the group even deign to speak up, you'll be judged by the company you keep.

[DeLukas]

Losing the argument means calling people names and getting out the crayons, doesn't it?

Losing would imply there is some way of winning.

There isn't. There are two conflicting view points and both sides feel passionately about the issue. There is no middle ground and even if there was neither side would be willing to give.

 

As for the crayons . . . a picture says a thousand words.

 

[Compass]

DeLukas: a picture does say a thousand words. You will note my picture.

 

You might want to read my previous post. I edited it after you edited your earlier post.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

bob white:

>I know of no scout unit charterd by a public school. In every case that I know of the unit is chartered by a parents organization made of parents that attend a particular school. That is a huge difference from being chartered by the school.

 

You didn't know about Chicago chartering 28 units back in 1998, either. You don't even seen to know about the charters mentioned earlier in this thread.

 

...

>So the argument about scout units and taxpayer based support is groundless.

 

Keep whistling in the dark; there are thousands of BSA units that will lose their charters because of this. Keeping yourself ignorant won't help.