Atheist leader to be expelled from BSA

[k9gold-scout]

The BSA will only exist if they can believe in God and as long as most parents do not want to send their sons on camping trips with gay scoutmasters, that's the way it will stay. The only other choice would be a european style 'scout federation". If the BSA was still around it wiould have fewer members than 4H.

 

[Rooster7]

DeLukas,

 

Unless you are going to say the Boy Scouts should be a Christian only organization.

 

That was a huge leap. So basically, you're saying that BSA's "belief in God" requirement is really some sort of covert policy for Christians? That doesn't seem to be an intelligent reading of the policy. It seems more like something one would say when they have no real response. In other words, when you don't have a substantive argument, accuse your opponent of bigotry or demean his character in some other way.

 

In reference to the Judeo-Christian pretence or debate, what exactly are the accusers saying here? Is someone implying that some folks want BSA to hang a sign that says "Christians and Jews Only"? You know, since BSA has millions of members, it's a little difficult to defend that accusation. If you're suggesting that a large group exists that is wielding it's clout in order to obtain such a goal, then whoever is making the accusation should provide some concrete evidence. On the other hand, if someone is implying that the Judeo-Christian value system has permeated the BSA ranks, I say, "So what?" Which of those specific values would cause anyone harm? Very few of the world's faiths, if any, would argue with such a value system. No doubt, someone - probably Merlyn will make a case that a religious value system is the same as forced religion. I strongly disagree. Regardless, if someone wants to make the case, please tell me how a specific Judeo-Christian value might cause a non-Jew or a non-Christian some heartburn. Is it the "Thou shall not murder" or the "Thou shall not covet" thing that creates such a conflict? Please, let's be real.

 

Lastly, to those who stubbornly refuse to recognize reality, I just want to reiterate - The BSA "belief in God" requirement exists. BSA has maintained its stance for decades. It's not going to change. Get over it.

 

You make the assumption that I am not a Christian.

 

Never said you weren't, unless you're trying to tell me that you have no sins and/or have no desire to be repentant.

 

Judging by this comment and others, it is obvious to me that you like to take people's words and twist them to your advantage. Let me warn you, the posters on this board are pretty bright and they're not going to fall prey to those kinds of silly games.

 

[acco40]

Rooster, was it not you who had such heartburn with the "get over it" comment?

 

The BSA does have a belief in God requirement. Will it change? Who really knows? It had a policy of no female leaders. That changed. Change is not inherently evil. Should Eagle Scouts who did not follow the Jim Crow laws from southern states in the 1930's be stripped of their Eagle rank because they violated Duty to Country?

 

 

[eisely]

I don't recall seeing the chartered organization that sponsors Lambert's unit identified anywhere. I wonder if it is a church or affiliated with a church.

 

Mr. Lambert probably has much to offer. But he has set himself apart by his own choice. So he has to accept the consequences of that choice.

 

Question for Bob White:

 

In other threads, if I recall correctly, you stated that the COR has the authority to remove members, both youth and adult, from scouting. In this thread you seem to downplay the role of the CO, and hence the COR, in this regard and assert that only BSA can remove members. I am confused. Please clarify.

[DeLukas]

The BSA will only exist if they can believe in God

 

The BSA does not believe in anything it is an organization of people who believe in things. No one said, The Boy Scouts cant believe in God. They are simply asking why someone has to believe in God.

 

That was a huge leap. So basically, you're saying that BSA's "belief in God" requirement is really some sort of covert policy for Christians?

 

Thats a great conspiracy theory. It would make a great story, but no, such an idea is silly. What I was saying is, if we accept a belief in any higher power, why do we not accept belief in no higher power.

 

As for the Judeo-Christian value system, its just fine. Its great that we try to teach such a value system to others. However, that system does NOT require a belief in God to follow it. The religion does, the value system does not.

 

The BSA "belief in God" requirement exists. BSA has maintained its stance for decades. It's not going to change. Get over it.

 

That does not make it right, nor mean people should not continue to fight to change it as long as they work within the system.

 

Never said you weren't, unless you're trying to tell me that you have no sins and/or have no desire to be repentant.

 

That would be very hard for me to claim after stating, We are flawed human beings. This, in context and as an admission, represents both acceptance of wrong doing and regret of such actions.

 

Judging by this comment and others, it is obvious to me that you like to take people's words and twist them to your advantage. Let me warn you, the posters on this board are pretty bright and they're not going to fall prey to those kinds of silly games.

 

You seem to like to do the same. I have no doubt that they are bright and intelligent. Many (if not most) people in scouting are. However, if you feel that simply because you are on the majority side makes your right, then you are dead wrong.

 

Edit: Because Grammar Is Hard

(This message has been edited by DeLukas)

[Rooster7]

acco40,

 

Okay - I'm guilty (of using the "Get over it" phrase). I must admit it does have a certain degree of disdain. So, I offer my ap... apol... apolo... apogolies (sorry, that was a little hard to get out).

 

However, let me reuse another phrase that's very appropriate for your follow-on comments.

 

Let's be real. Are you really trying to compare Jim Crow laws to having a faith in God? Let's do a quick review here. Jim Crow laws encouraged discrimination and bigotry. Faith in God means acknowledging and respecting the creator of the universe. Yeah, I can see how you could get confused. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to see a surgeon about removing my tongue from the side of my cheek - It may be stuck there for life. Seriously, your comparison is beyond comprehension.

 

[Rooster7]

DeLukas,

 

Your last response was intelligently and politely stated. I felt your original argument was poorly presented and slightly vindictive. Upon further review, my opinion of you has gone up several notches.

 

Regardless, I am in strong disagreement with your stance. BSA was created as a character building organization. It's founders, and in all likeliness a vast majority of its members, feel that a faith in God is extremely vital to developing and maintaining that character. You may disagree. But, as an Eagle Scout, you should not be surprised when Scouters and Scouts are dismayed and put off by your stance. And, please remember, BSA is a private organization. The government did not create us. Our charter is not to serve all of America's citizens. Volunteers with strong principles created BSA. The majority may not always be right, but in this case, I am certain that they are.

 

Do not take this as an insult...only an observation. For some reason, I get the impression that you are very young, perhaps 19 or 20, like Mr. Lambert. If so, that doesn't take away anything from your opinion. I have a son that age and I respect his views. However, if you are that age, let me suggest that you hang around some older guys as a fellow Scouter and truly get to know them. You may find that we're not as legalistic as you have suggested. Furthermore, I discovered that when you have children of your own, those old self-righteous farts suddenly become a lot wiser (not that I'm one of them). I guess what I'm trying to say is - Keep an open mind to more than just contemporary wisdom. Sometimes the things we rebel against are the very things we should be embracing. This is what I have found to be true in life.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

>Jim Crow laws encouraged discrimination and bigotry. Faith in God means acknowledging and respecting the creator of the universe.

 

Let's see, is the Chief Seattle district commissioner chair encouraging bigotry when he says "Anybody that doesn't believe in god isn't a good citizen, and that if an atheist found a wallet on the ground they would pick it up, plunder the money and throw the wallet back on the ground." ?

 

Should he be removed from his position so he won't encourage bigotry against atheists?

[Bob White]

Eisely,

Your right I could have been more specific in my last post. A charter organization can remove your membership in a unit, leaving an individual free to register in another unit. They can do this for any reason they choose since it is their unit. Only the BSA can expell a person from membership where they cannot register in any Unit, District or Council in the BSA program.

 

Hopw this clarifies things,

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Rooster7]

Bigotry against people who refuse to believe in and/or recognize God? Hmmm.

 

So, if a group or individual does not want to associate with another group or individual that believes in and/or does something distasteful to them, we must label that bigotry? So, for example, if I don't won't to associate with people who organize and participate in orgies, I am guilty of bigotry? How about Satan worshipers? Do we have to let them in too? I'm sorry. Your argument doesn't hold water in a free society. BSA is free to associate with whoever they deem to be appropriate. They want faith in God to be a part of the program. If others fail to see how not recognizing God is wrong, the fault lies within them, not the BSA requirement.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[DeLukas]

Rooster7,

 

Your last response was intelligently and politely stated. I felt your original argument was poorly presented and slightly vindictive. Upon further review, my opinion of you has gone up several notches.

 

Yea, I tend to start off a little too harsh on my first post on a topic like this.

 

Regardless, I am in strong disagreement with your stance.

 

Just as I do with yours.

 

BSA was created as a character building organization. It's founders, and in all likeliness a vast majority of its members, feel that a faith in God is extremely vital to developing and maintaining that character. You may disagree.

 

Why thank you, I think I will. I have grown up in a college community (and that is where my troop was based) where I have meet too many wonderful and good people to base my judgment of them off religion alone. In my view, character is need to have faith in God, not the other way around.

 

But, as an Eagle Scout, you should not be surprised when Scouters and Scouts are dismayed and put off by your stance. And, please remember, BSA is a private organization. The government did not create us. Our charter is not to serve all of America's citizens. Volunteers with strong principles created BSA. The majority may not always be right, but in this case, I am certain that they are.

 

Im not surprised, because if it where not so this would a non-issue. I am certain the majority is very much in the wrong.

 

Do not take this as an insult...only an observation. For some reason, I get the impression that you are very young, perhaps 19 or 20, like Mr. Lambert. If so, that doesn't take away anything from your opinion. I have a son that age and I respect his views. However, if you are that age, let me suggest that you hang around some older guys as a fellow Scouter and truly get to know them. You may find that we're not as legalistic as you have suggested. Furthermore, I discovered that when you have children of your own, those old self-righteous farts suddenly become a lot wiser (not that I'm one of them). I guess what I'm trying to say is - Keep an open mind to more than just contemporary wisdom. Sometimes the things we rebel against are the very things we should be embracing. This is what I have found to be true in life.

 

I am of the age you speak.

 

I do hang around them, and sometimes learn from them (my father is one of them, and I am fairly sure a link to this thread will be emailed to him and I will have a message on my phone when i get home). However, there are some views they (and you) hold that are dated and wrong. Yes, sometimes things we rebel against are things we should embrace. However, sometimes we try to change things that should be changed. Sometimes the old fear change as it upsets the world they have become comfortable in.

 

Well, I feel we are at an impasse. It seems that all that can be stated has been and we are repeating ourselves. So, till the next time.

 

[evmori]

God is not a female! God is a male! I'm not going to give Bible references since it refers to God the Father all over the Bible.

 

IMHO, the ACLU is a bunch of people who want things their own way & will do whatever they can to get it. They say their sole purpose is to uphold the Constitution but they are the 1st ones who shoot it down! They seem to walk over the right of people who they don't agree with & interpret the Constitution & Bill of Rights in ways they see fit! Bunch of morons in my opinion.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[ScoutParent]

Another assault by the minority....Merlyn, take kids who don't believe in a higher being and start your own organization. The military sponsors organizations overseas so kids don't have to miss even more while their parent's are defending atheists rights to be atheists.

[acco40]

Rooster7,

 

Please read my post again. I'm not trying to equate a belief in God to Jim Crow laws. What I am trying to equate, and obviously not doing a very good job of it, is that not following Duty to God should be equal to not following Duty to Country (in the eyes of BSA). {In my eyes, god is infallible, my country has many faults.} Therefore, not violating Jim Crow laws should have been equal to not violating Duty to God.

 

If a violation of the scout oath is ones criteria, one should make a violation of one of our country's laws just as much of a no-no as a non-belief in God.

 

[littlebillie]

somebody mentioned the charter... the following is taken therefrom:

 

"The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916."

 

 

Note "boys". Note "patriotism, courage, self-reliance". Note that it doesn't say "some boys" and it doesn't specify "religion" "reverence for God" or "spiritual nature" (or heterosexuality, for that matter, but I think that's a different board :-). Now some may say, "God's a kindred virtue", but remember, it was junior officer and squareshooter training in original concept, and I'd suggest that the fact that only tacking on "kindred virtues" at the end of a non-religious list, and not specifying religion at all, makes an important point, and frankly, since the Charter is in many ways our legal "heart", it may be time for Congress to revisit the wording of that intrument.

 

Regardless that, however, I also note that throughout my Scouting life - Cub and Boy, thru Eagle - God has always been made present. The kid made a mistake in not addressing his failed faith earlier, with family, with leaders, with whomever. But he DID address it at his COR, and that was to his credit - he knew that by doing so, he might have not gotten the Eagle. But he did.

 

If anyone deserves criticism, it was the members of that Court. If I show up somewhere, hat in hand, and say, hey, I don't meet the requirements and I am then told, oh, hey never mind the requirements, come on in - well, those guys set precedent in all of this, and possible legal precedent. If Executive does nothing about it, then there's a bunch of other issues that'll get raised, by allowing that precedent to stand.

 

So here's where it can get interesting!