Atheist leader to be expelled from BSA

[evmori]

Let's see. The BSA requires a belief in a supreme being. In my case that would be God. In some other religions that might not be God. Mr. Lambert refuses to meet this requirement so he can't be a member of the BSA. What's the problem? Does this make him a bad Scout? I say yes because he obviously can't live up to the Scout oath since he can't do his duty to God since he doesn't acknowledge a supreme being.

 

We need to pray for this man that he will see the error of his ways & will turn to God & ask forgiveness. Eternal life in damnation can't be enjoyable.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Compass]

evmori: "We need to pray for this man that he will see the error of his ways & will turn to God & ask forgiveness."

 

Absolutely, Ed. And let us not forget to pray most fervently that, while Mr. Lambert and others like him are seeking to modify and/or destroy the BSA (for their own benefit and glory), that God will protect it and use it for His glory.

[SR540Beaver]

acco40,

 

Respecting someone else's beliefs and denying them membership based on specific qualifications are two different things.

 

Denying membership is not being unfaithful to the part of the oath respecting others beliefs. Someone has the right to believe that it is OK to have sex with children and may be a card carrying member of the Man Boy Love Association (this is a real organization), but while we can respect his heartfelt belief in the practice, we are not going to let him be a Scouter because it is contrary to our values.

[SR540Beaver]

A quick note! My example was extreme and most people would find it difficult to respect a belief in sex with children....myself included. The example was to make a point that respecting someone's personal convictions is seperate from letting them be included in your membership when that belief is in opposition to your organizations beliefs.

[sctmom]

He "glossed over" the religious declaration on the Adult Membership form (which is pretty clear that you must believe in a higher power) yet at his Eagle Board of Review he made sure to bring up the question of his faith/non-faith. Okay, so he gets points for not lying when asked about his faith, did he read the membership before filling it out?

 

What if during the Board of Review he had said "I am NOT trustworthy. Just last week I got kicked out of school for cheating. But hey, I'm honest about it"?

 

 

[tjhammer]

 

What a shame that hot heads and closed minds seem to be prevailing both on this thread and most likely in the situation surrounding this young man. And that's an indictment of both sides of the opinion... I suspect the Council Scout Executive is over reacting to Darrell Lambert who is over reacting, and everyone around them are jumping to one side or the other, preparing to do battle.

 

Doesn't the whole thing just seem artificial and contrived? Doesn't it seem a bit absurd (and "flimsy") that the CSE is essentially waiting for this kids just to say something, anything, closely resembling an acknowledgement in God? Is "Mother Nature" (which apparently qualifies) all that different than "Uncle Science"? Isn't it troubling that the BSA is basically saying "You must believe in God. We'll let you define what God is, though. So basically, if you want to believe God is a '67 Chevy Chevette, as long as you profess a belief in the Chevette, you qualify." The whole thing seems so watered down as to not really be an issue worth the BSA's fighting for any longer (I'm sure that will elicit some opinion). It seems to me, instead of blanket policies made of straw, the BSA would be taken more seriously if it simply decided to judge the worth of its members by the quality of their character, and allow those closest to the local level make those decisions. Shouldn't it be up to the parents and Chartering Org to determine the quality of character of their members and leaders?

 

I don't want to question Mr. Lambert's commitment to his belief, or whether he has truly considered all the aspects of it. But I would wonder what the results of a calm, personal conversation with him would be if presented in this way:

 

Belief in God, or a Supreme Being, as defined so loosely by the BSA, is really more of a statement of the importance for Scouts to recognize that there is a higher power than self, that they should look external to themselves. I think religion is really nothing more than this theory, buried in various flavors of dogma and detail.

 

He sounds like he is a good kid, and he certainly sounds like he would acknowledge the importance of selflessness and that there is a greater power than lies solely within him (nature? humanity?). His respect for the things of nature, not unlike most Scouts, is probably one of awe. His respect for mankind probably far exceeds just the accountability of man's laws and rules. And while he doesn't want to put a name on this (God), he probably wouldn't have any trouble acknowledging the underlying beliefs are there, nonetheless.

[acco40]

Tj,

 

How dare you talk with such reason!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Yes, that was said with tongue firmly in cheek.)

[red feather]

ditto with tjhammer.

 

As a youth his scouting peers and adult leaders awarded him with rank, authority and eventually Eagle.

 

As an adult he is held to higher scrutiny and as the system is now, must adhere to it. To think of removing his Eagle should not be even considered, it was earned as a youth and approved by BSA.

 

Tempest in a teapot. 'this too shall pass'

 

YIS

[le Voyageur]

 

With BSA membership requirements being explicit the issue is really black and white, and simple to decide.

What we are not hearing is the full story.

Consider that in all of our lives we hit crossroads on the road to enlightenment, whatever that may be. I don't think that this is niether an accident or a fluke.

If you believe in an all powerful and knowing God, then we have to ask ourselves that all important question of why didn't He (or She) provide us with perfect insight, as well as perfect wisdom from the start.

It is my feelings that we are placed in a position of constant questioning; and a constant requirement to make choices to to how we should live our lives which will determine the type of person we become. If we make good,and wise choices, then we become more enlightened and move ahead to greater understandings.

If we don't then we're fated to make the same bad decisions again and again.

Established religions guide most believers through periods of doubt, but the basic truth is this, we come in alone, and we go out alone.

Our only constant is our own personal relationship with our Creator. If belonging to a church or temple, or whatever offers you solace, then that's great.

But the fact that any of us levy questions about the religions (or lack of religion) that we tend to is not a bad thing.

Perhaps the questioning is in fact the crossroad. Some people feel guilty about questioning their faith, I'm not one of them. My Creator gave me a brain, and the ability to decide my own destiny, and that is exactly what I have endeavored to do. If we had been meant to march in lock step, then we would not of been given the ability to question the marching orders.

I think that it is healthy to look deeply into our core beliefs from time to time, and cast out those beliefs that are contrary to what we want to be. It's the power of one. Each of us has to be self truthful, self determing, then use that as a building block as to how we will be embraced by others on our road of becoming.

In the end we are, and will be our choices......

[le Voyageur]

 

Post note:

My comments are directed to offset Ed's and Compass's biased viewpoints...

 

en roulant

[ASM7]

tjh

 

He sounds like he is a good kid, and he certainly sounds like he would acknowledge the importance of selflessness and that there is a greater power than lies solely within him (nature? humanity?). His respect for the things of nature, not unlike most Scouts, is probably one of awe. His respect for mankind probably far exceeds just the accountability of man's laws and rules. And while he doesn't want to put a name on this (God), he probably wouldn't have any trouble acknowledging the underlying beliefs are there, nonetheless.

 

maybe you read to much into what this young man is saying. You talk like you know him very well. You don't know anything about him, except that he is a proclaimed atheist, not an agnostic. He does not believe in a God of any kind and does not fit into the program. As a scout leader, I don't have to respect anyone's belief. I have to respect their right to believe. He is not a believer. He is a non-believer.

 

redfeather

 

To think of removing his Eagle should not be even considered, it was earned as a youth and approved by BSA.

 

And if he professed to be an athiest before he received Eagle, then he received it falsely. The Eagle Award is too prestigious to give to those that fall short. And yes it can be taken away.

 

 

 

 

 

[Compass]

tjhammer: But I would wonder what the results of a calm, personal conversation with him would be if presented in this way:

 

Nice thoughts but, with all respect, if he is a true atheist I don't think he would go for either the "higher power than self" God or the "Chevy Chevette" God.

 

red feather: As an adult he is held to higher scrutiny...

 

Actually, in this aspect, the scrutiny was supposed to be similar.

 

le Voyageur: "My comments are directed to offset Ed's and Compass's biased viewpoints.."

 

le Voyageur, friend, everyone's viewpoints are biased. That is the truth.

 

Yes, I am biased towards the truth. Truth for me of course includes faith/religious truth, but that is not really my intended focus here; instead, I focus on this Mr. Lambert's careful avoidance of the truth, perhaps for a long time. I also focus on the institutional misrepresentation which seems to be happening at Mr. Lambert's troop, i.e., the charter orginization owns the troop and operates it with the proviso that they follow the Scouting program as defined by the BSA; the program, in a sense, is on conditional "loan": as long as they abide by and operate within the program, they (the CO) may use it. The truth is that they seemingly haven't done so, also for a long time (perhaps longer than Mr. Lambert's atheism).

 

And so, for persons who are so carefree with the truth, one has to wonder where they stand on other issues. If someone lies to us or to someone else, don't we look at what they say in the future with some, mmm, bias?

 

As far as evmori's and my remarks earlier, yes, we are "biased" in the sense we are concerned for Mr. Lambert's (really long-range) future. And yes, I freely admit to being biased, as I think and hope that all of you are, towards the Scouting program, which I/we believe is the best youth program on Earth.

[ScoutParent]

The unbiased viewpoint is to look at what the requirements for adult leadership are and to see if this individual is complying. He is not in compliance with the religious declarations requirement. As far as the Eagle Rank, it is been recinded from individuals in the past. It is a matter between the individual and the BSA. If the adults that sat on the board did not follow the rules, that needs to be dealt with too. What I find interesting is that this man acknowledges that the organization gave him something to do every night of the week, kept him from undesireable activities, helped develop his character, etc and yet he still wants to destroy that for which it stands.

[scomman]

To quote from the leadership application under leadreship requirements "The applicant must possess the moral, educational, and emotional qualities that the Boy Scouts Of America deems neccessary to afford positive leadership to youth. The applicant must also be of the correct age, and subscribe to the Declaration of Religious Principle, and abide by the Scout Oath or Promise, and the Scout Law."

 

Webster defines oath as Main Entry: oath

1 a (1) : a solemn usually formal calling upon God or a god to witness to the truth of what one says or to witness that one sincerely intends to do what one says (2) : a solemn attestation of the truth or inviolability of one's words b : something (as a promise) corroborated by an oath

 

By "glossing" over the religious principle as found in the leadership application and as part of the oath. He has violated the first word of the Scout Law "Trustworthy" which is to show ones self worthy of trust or confidence.

 

In a paper published at location http://www.scout.org/library/spiritualdev_e.pdf

which is the international scout movement website on page 33 Lord Baden Powell said "No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws. So every Scout should have a religion"

and again at the 1926 Joint Conference of Commissioners of Scouting and Guiding in High Leigh England. Lord Baden-Powell said the following" I have been asked to describe more fully than shown in the "Scouting for Boy's" what was in my mind as regards religion when I instuited Scouting and Guiding. I was asked "Where does Religion come in?"It is already there It is the fundamental factor underlying scouting and guiding"

Even from the outset of the Scouting movement religion has played a part in the Scout movement. To be a leader or Scout is to acknolwedge religions part in Scouting. Atheism denies all aspects of God and that is in conflict with the basic tenets of the scout movement.

 

 

[Rooster7]

Le Voyageur,

 

With BSA membership requirements being explicit the issue is really black and white, and simple to decide.

 

I agree.

 

What we are not hearing is the full story. Consider that in all of our lives we hit crossroads on the road to enlightenment, whatever that may be. I don't think that this is niether an accident or a fluke.

 

I'm not sure of your meaning behind these words. If you're saying, we do not know what the future holds. This young man may come to a different conclusion one day. I prayerfully agree again.

 

If you believe in an all powerful and knowing God, then we have to ask ourselves that all important question of why didn't He (or She) provide us with perfect insight, as well as perfect wisdom from the start.

 

I use to ponder this questionI use to ask myself why. Then I realized God is the Father, and his wisdom is beyond our comprehension. I think Romans 9:19-21 says it best:

 

One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

 

It is my feelings that we are placed in a position of constant questioning; and a constant requirement to make choices to how we should live our lives which will determine the type of person we become. If we make good, and wise choices, then we become more enlightened and move ahead to greater understandings. If we don't then we're fated to make the same bad decisions again and again.

 

I disagree. This seems to imply that we undergoing some kind of spiritual evolution. We can make wise choices and still have corrupt hearts. In fact, I'm convinced that our hearts will remain corrupt until we, as individuals, recognize our need for a Savior.

 

Established religions guide most believers through periods of doubt, but the basic truth is this, we come in alone, and we go out alone.

 

This is not true if you know Jesus. Christ sent His Holy Spirit to dwell in us.

 

Our only constant is our own personal relationship with our Creator. If belonging to a church or temple, or whatever offers you solace, then that's great. But the fact that any of us levy questions about the religions (or lack of religion) that we tend to is not a bad thing. Perhaps the questioning is in fact the crossroad. Some people feel guilty about questioning their faith, I'm not one of them. My Creator gave me a brain, and the ability to decide my own destiny, and that is exactly what I have endeavored to do.

 

I agree. I believe God wants us to examine our faith regularly. I don't think we have to doubt what we've already examined and found to be true.

 

If we had been meant to march in lock step, then we would not of been given the ability to question the marching orders.

 

I agree. But I don't necessarily agree with your conclusion. Perhaps God just wants us to come to Him as individuals. He wants to have a personal relationship with each one of us. If we all thought the same way, and acted the same way, what would be the point? He created us as individuals and he wants us to come Him as individuals. Yet, each of us can come to the same conclusion (or the same God) and still be individuals.

 

I think that it is healthy to look deeply into our core beliefs from time to time, and cast out those beliefs that are contrary to what we want to be. It's the power of one.

 

Rather than "cast out those beliefs that are contrary to what we want", I think we should cast out those beliefs that we know are contrary to what God wants. If we don't use God as a guidepost, then it opens the door to all sorts of immoral thinking. I.e., a racist can justify his beliefs by using the "what we want to be" litmus test.

 

Each of us has to be self truthful, self determining, then use that as a building block as to how we will be embraced by others on our road of becoming.

 

Yes, I think we need to keep our minds open for the truth. But, the truth is external to us.

 

In the end we are, and will be our choices....

 

I agree, with a caveat. I believe God gave us free will and we are all invited to come to Him. But ultimately, His grace will enable us to make the right choices.