Atheist leader to be expelled from BSA

[Bob White]

Acco40,

This is not a religious argument. This is a matter of explicit rules and membership requirements. The Oath and Law of the Boys Scout movement, the advancement requirements and the membership requirements are specific. This is about a scout who ignores one of the required elements and still expects to be a member in good standing. Had he chosen to ignore "help other people" and refused to do service projects or good turns he would be just as unwanted by the movement as a leader or member. It is not the fact that he chose "a scout is reverent" to ignore. It is that he chose any part of the scouting ideals at all to flatly reject.

 

You cannot choose a law in your community to not be a criminal. If you want to be a citizen in good standing then you must obey them all or risk the penalties.

 

To be a member of the BSA you are required to accept the value system of the BSA.

 

Bob White

[Rooster7]

To me, if you do not respect an atheist's beliefs, you do not follow the Boy Scout Oath.

 

If I'm guilty of anything, it's - not respecting the "unbelief" of others. Classifying atheism as a religion or as some kind of faith is a classic Orwellian misuse of the language.

 

The truth is I respect many people despite what they believe (whether we're talking about religion, politics, or anything else). So what does respect mean? Does it mean I have to show approval of other people's religious beliefs and practices? No. Does it mean, when others are around, we have to avoid demonstrations of our own religious beliefs and practices? No. It simply means we tolerate one another. At least, that's all it should mean. If BSA wants it to mean more than that, then they are asking folks to ignore their own faith in order to make others feel more welcomed. I don't think that's what they're asking us to do.

 

Nevertheless, BSA has made it plain to all its members and potential new members that taking the Scout Oath means you believe in God, and reciting the Scout Law means you are reverent. No, quietly omitting those parts is NOT staying true to the oath or your beliefs. It IS hiding who you are and what you really believe in. Mr. Lambert should be embarrassed by his actions. The fact that he waited to make his stand when he was no longer a Scout, and more telling - after his Eagle award, also says a lot about his character, or lack thereof.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[acco40]

I agree Bob. I agree more than you can imagine. Mr. Lambert does not meet the qualifications of the BSA. What I believe you and Rooster and others may not understand is that if YOU do not respect Mr. Lambert's beliefs (you can respect them and still believe he should be denied membership as I do) YOU should be denied membership as well.

 

To be a member of the BSA you are required to accept the value system of the BSA. One of the values of the BSA is to respect the beliefs of others. Do you respect Mr. Lambert's beliefs? I do. Rooster7 has stated that he does not.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[OldGreyEagle]

Gee, I wonder how many of us would be sympathetic towards an "expert witness" who would "gloss over" the "...tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth..." of the swearing in in a court of law.

 

Hey Rooster, tell you what, lets let this guy still be in scouts if when we recite the ten commandments, we both get one we can ignore (pick one, any one)I mean 9 out 10 is far better than any baseball player I know.

 

Better yet, following this line of thinking, I will continue to say reverent, I will just ignore the trustworhty part, I mean, thats still 11/12's of being a scout.

 

When saying the pledge of Allegiance, can I say "...under God..." and work to limit personal freedoms because I dont beleive in the the "...liberty and justice for all..." part?

 

[OldGreyEagle]

.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[OldGreyEagle]

(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[acco40]

OGE,

 

Does the "three strikes and your out" rule apply to you?

 

You only have to hit return once.

 

 

[Compass]

acco40: "You do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teachings every day and by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs.

 

Ok.

 

To me, if you do not respect an atheist's beliefs, you do not follow the Boy Scout Oath.

 

Not ok. I don't respect an atheist's beliefs, I respect his right to believe that there is no God.

 

All:

 

Isn't there always an odd dichotomy in these stories? "I love the program." "I hate the program." "I want the right to cherry-pick the things I want/like/need out of the program." And, most of all, "I don't want to create my own program that best suits my wants/likes/needs." Kinda like, "I love the Bible; I just hate all that stuff about God in it and everything."

[Rooster7]

What if Mr. Lambert practiced a faith that required virgin sacrifices? Would you respect his beliefs then? Exactly where do you draw the line? I know you want to demonstrate how open-minded you are, but let's not get ridiculous. We are not required to respect every person or even every faith. If you define respect for every person as respecting his or her legal rights to exist, I can agree. If you define respect for every faith as respecting the right of others to embrace it, I can agree. However, beyond that, I'm not sure how much I'm going to respect someone or their beliefs. I trust that reasonable people understand BSA's intentions. If you want to parse every phrase that BSA puts forth, that's your right, but I'm convinced that I understand their intent and it's not as you purport it to be.

 

In short, to avoid confusion, BSA could serve itself and others well if they substituted the word respect with tolerate. It may not be as warm and friendly, but I'm convinced, it accurately reflects their true intent.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[acco40]

Compass,

 

Your are correct. The Boy Scout Oath requires that we respect the rights of others to practice their own beliefs. A subtle but important distinction.

[Bob White]

Absolutely Accu40, Mr. Lambert is welcome to believe or not believe whatever he chooses, as long as he realizes that with choices come rewards and repercussions. Mr. Lambert may not believe there is a higher power than himself in the universe but he is finding out there is a high power than he in the scouting program. Mr. Lambert expects to be a member of an organization whose values he does not accept.As OGE would tell us musically "You can't always get what you want"

 

Bob White

[Compass]

What if Mr. Lambert instead joined a church. Your church. He grows up in it, he really likes the program ("'Capture the Flag' was really great at Youth Retreat!"). He is liked and respected by youth and adults alike. He just glosses-over the God stuff. Oh, by the way, he's been your kids Youth Leader. For years. And boy, the young people in your church just love and respect him to death. "But I'm sure if he had to make the choice, Darrell or (?God?), he would choose you Darrell, hands down."

 

Just because he's not a pedophile doesn't mean he's not harmful to my kids.

 

[acco40]

Compass,

 

Have some faith in your kids. Many people that they meet and respect may have a different value system than their own (or should I say yours).

 

One of the beauties of Scouting is that it exposes my children to people of many different backgrounds.

[Compass]

Respect. Respecting others. Repecting other's right to their beliefs.

 

Definitions of Respect:

 

1. To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem.

2. To avoid violation of or interference with: respect the speed limit.

 

Of course, we mean the second definition when we use 'respect' in this conversation. Problem is, the word also means the first definition. It's a subtle thing, but I believe it has affected our thinking as a nation, that we now tend to treat everyone else and their bad ideas/opinions/approaches with deference.(This message has been edited by Compass)

[Compass]

acco40: "Have some faith in your kids."

 

Actually, my faith is in Jesus. Children can disappoint, but He does not.

 

But, I know what you mean. Oh, I trust my children to a great degree. Especially as they get older-- they are more analytical as they mature.

 

I just don't trust some adults, particularly the evil ones.

 

"Many people that they meet and respect may have a different value system than their own (or should I say yours)."

 

Absolutely. The problem as I see it is when charming adults are persuasive and influential, especially with younger, impressionable children, while they are simultaneously dishonest and/or not forthcoming about their own beliefs and agendas.

 

I am assuming you not implying above that my children's beliefs and my own are significantly divergent. (No hostility on my part is implied, and no response is necessary if true.)

 

"One of the beauties of Scouting is that it exposes my children to people of many different backgrounds."

 

True. I appreciate honest exposure under conditions and environment supervised by me.

 

What I abhor are adult "stealth bombers."(This message has been edited by Compass)(This message has been edited by Compass)