Atheist leader to be expelled from BSA

[tjhammer]

 

If the purpose of the program were to be a swimmer, and you absolutely refused to get in the water, then there is no point in you being in the program.BobWhite, I do understand your point. I also commend you on a very lucid explanation of it.

 

Here's where we disagree: the "purpose of the [scouting] program" is not to be a faith-based organization. Scouting's purpose is to build citizens of good character and leadership. Among the many methods we utilize to accomplish that purpose is teaching a Scout his Duty to God.

 

This comes back to my previous question about when the BSA became a "faith-based organization". That's not a small question, or one that should be so easily dismissed.

 

Describing ourselves as a "faith-based organization" (which official BSA now does, albeit occasionally interchanged with "values-based organization", which is a different thing all together) represents a major shift in how we see ourselves as an organization. To me, a Church is a "faith-based organization", which is to say that it's "based on religious faith". In your analogy above, a Church would say to you that God is the pool, water and bathing suit required to "teach swimming".

 

That's just not been the case with Scouting until recently. Under the very strong influence (I've made this point before) of the Mormon Church, and to a lesser degree the Catholic Church, and then to a MUCH lesser degree several other denominations, the BSA seems to be undergoing a transformation (through it's policies and its statements, but not really its program) and becoming an extension of the Church.

 

We're taking a public, iron-clad, blanket stance on issues of faith... Issues (homosexuality) that many Churches disagree on. Why are we taking these stances, and increasingly identifying as a "faith-based organization"?

 

B-P would not have identified Scouting's purpose as an extension of the Church. The original Congressional Charter certainly made no such reference. Teaching matters of specific faith has not been our place (it's not the pool, water or swim suit needed to teach our "swimming" lessons).

 

So I suppose my concern is that we're identifying ourselves (and others are identifying us) as something we really didn't set out to be. Do we expect Scouts to show reverence to God? Yes. Is that important to achieving our purpose? Yes. But is that our main purpose? No.

 

[Bob White]

TJ

"Here's where we disagree: the "purpose of the [scouting] program" is not to be a faith-based organization. Scouting's purpose is to build citizens of good character and leadership. Among the many methods we utilize to accomplish that purpose is teaching a Scout his Duty to God."

 

That is not an accurate representation. In fact you have it in reverse. The purpose or mission of the Boy Scouts of America is "to prepare young people to make ethical choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law."

 

So "Duty to God" a major point of the Oath, and being reverent a point of the Law is the purpose of the program.

 

Character development, Citizenship training and Mental and physical fitness, are the three aims or specific areas of development we try to affect through the use of various specific Methods of scouting. (This is one on the things explained in the New Leader essentials training course.)

 

So Duty to God is and always has been a goal, character development is an avenue to achieve that goal. If someone states flat out that they are unwilling to accept the goal then their participation is pointless. They will never succeed in the mission of the program.

 

You need to remove the idea that the BSA is about church. "Church" is not a concept that is recognized by all religions, nor is it one that scouting is focused on. Certainly being active in a church, synagogue, temple, coven, whatever term a religion uses is evidence of trying to fulfill ones duty it is not the only way. The BSA does not require professing a specific religion. The Boy Scouts of America asks that you recognize an obligation to God, and does not even try to define what God is for anyone. In addition it expects you to have an active religious life, and then does not go on to define that but leaves it to the individual heart.

 

How more liberal can they be? Albert Schweitzer the great humanitarian said "no man can be truly happy until he learns to serve others". In much the same way, scouting the BSA says that until you recognize that the world, the community and society doesn't center on your existence, that there is a higher power that makes man unique, you cannot be a complete person. That is the BSA's opinion and that is what they have based the program on. It is a value that is key to scouting.

 

You need to flip flop your premise in order to be accurate with the structure of scouting. Perhaps that is the factor that has caused so much confusion.

 

Bob White

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[tjhammer]

BobWhite -- actually, I think you and I may be closer to an agreement than you think.

 

1) Note that in my post I consistently said the "purpose of Scouting", not the "purpose of the BSA", as you have done. This is an important point to me, because my only criticisms of the BSA are when it deviates from Scouting. (I'm much more in love with the "movement" of Scouting, the glorious game created by B-P, than I am the organization of BSA Inc. that operates the Scouting program here in the USA. I think you already recognize the distinction between BSA and Scouting, because I note you are often careful to use the term BSA when you make your points.)

 

2) Nonetheless, the "Aims" of Scouting (the "target" or "goal" for which we seek to hit are simple: citizenship, character and self. These are Scouting's goals, and it is essentially what I said in my post. The Scout Oath and Law defines what we think it means to actually achieve these goals (among this definition is Reverence and Duty to God). Much as we believe "Bravery" to reflect "mental, physical and spiritual fitness", we also find "Reverence" to reflect the same.

 

3) Our Methods include a variety of things to reach our Goals. Our Methods do not include teaching lessons of faith. They do include teaching a Scout "that until you recognize that the world, the community and society doesn't center on your existence, that there is a higher power that makes man unique, you cannot be a complete person. That is the BSA's opinion and that is what they have based the program on. It is a value that is key to scouting." (Beautifully said, btw, and I agree completely with the sentiment.)

 

 

But can you see the subtle difference between using the Method described above and teaching matters of faith? There is a difference, and BSA is crossing over from one to the other. By teaching certain beliefs (homosexuals are immoral), BSA is teaching matters of faith (specific faiths, even). In doing so, we are becoming a "faith-based organization", and we risk losing sight of (or working contrary to) our Aims.

 

Now, the matter of excluding atheists is a bit different in my mind than the ban on homosexuals (for several of reasons). I go back to my original post on this thread, where I suggest it's a shame that both sides are likely over reacting and suggest that the answer probably lies outside of the publicity.

 

I think it's possible to teach a Scout the very eloquent lesson you articulate above, without teaching him matters of faith. I think it's possible for Scouting to help a Scout grow into the "best kind of citizen" even if he is questioning or denying his faith. The only question remaining in my mind is whether it's possible for a Scout leader to be a good mentor to a boy, even if he lacks "faith in God" himself. And on that matter, I must honestly admit, I just don't know for certain. My gut is telling me that this is a question best left answered in the intimacy of the local relationships by the people best in position to judge the individual in question.(This message has been edited by tjhammer)

[Bob White]

TJ,

You are still mixing up scouting terminology.

 

The Mission of Scouting is our purpose. It includes living by the elements of the oath and law.

 

The 3 Aims of Scouting are the areas of life we feel we can impress the most through the scouting program in order to achieve the mission.

 

The methods of Scouting (there are 3 sets of methods, one for each of the three traditional programs) are how we influence the aims to achieve the mission.

 

Mission-Why we do

Aims- What we do

Methods- how we do

 

Please borrow the NLE training kit form your district training chair and review the information. This is covered in the First 20 minutes.

 

 

I always refer to the BSA because every country's program is a little different-some are very different. If you are looking for the program used by BP it doesnt exist anywhwere anymore. Even the UK program has evolved beyond the original program. The world is different than in 1907, the kids are different, science has evolved, learning techniques improved. Much of the Patrol Method is still straight from BP the elements and purpose of the Troop meeting is still what BP developed. That is why it is so important to use those tools correctly. BP started a wonderful movement but I think if we didn't become more than what he began in 1907 he would be very disappointed in us today.

 

As long as you are leading a program in the United States you might as well use the program of the BSA.

 

Again as far as homosexuality the BSA is not rejecting the individual, they reject the values which we see as inconsistent with Mission, Oath and Law.

 

Do not confuse the Aims of Scouting with the Mission of Scouting.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[ASM7]

TJ

Let me try to explain my feelings about something you tried to explain.

 

From what I've read of your posts, the term "Faith Based" seems to be giving you the most problem. I think that maybe you are trying to associate the words with a certain religion or church. The religions and churches started because of faith or a belief in God. To believe in God you have to have faith. God is not physical like everything else that we see, feel, hear, taste, or measure. Trying to put God in man's terms just doesn't make sense. According to what I have been taught, man is not capable of understanding what God is. He is beyond our limits of comprehension. Trying to comprehend and explain God is what a lot of people have a problem with. Hence the Atheists. "I can't prove it, so I don't believe it." That's what faith is all about.

All of this was a feeble attempt to try and explain that Duty to God is based on faith. We have to accept the fact that we can't prove God exists and accept the fact that he does on faith and nothing else. So, to promise a duty to God, we are saying that we are faith based. The values come from the laws that were handed down by God. All of our ethics and laws are based on those laws. In that respect, the government of this country produces laws based on ethics, morals that came from where? Who decided that murder, rape, stealing, were all bad things? It could have gone exactly the opposite direction, like the animal world, where just about anything goes. I beleive that God sent down laws to man. Those laws have been replicated in the form of the laws that we now live by. So, in a way the government is faith based derived.

 

If none of this made sense, then you will just have to have faith that I think I know what I'm talking about.

 

Doug

 

 

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

bob white replied to me:

>>"Why isn't the BSA honest enough to not issue charters to government agencies, which the BSA knows can't enforce its religious requirements?"

 

>But that's not the case at all Merlyn. Every Charter organization is aware of the scouting membership requirements

 

This is false, and I know it firsthand; I asked Navy Public Affairs office at COMNAVFORJAPAN about the Far East Council of the BSA, and units that are chartered by the military, because FECBSA is operating under DoD administration instruction CNFJ 5720.11F, which prohibits discrimination on the basis of religion. The PA office doesn't seem to know that the BSA practices religious discrimination, nor that units chartered by the Navy, such as Troop 22 chartered by NAF Atsugi, are required to refuse membership to atheists.

 

I can understand why the Navy would get the impression that the BSA doesn't discriminate on the basis of religion, because the BSA (at least the Far East Council) has agreed under 5720.11F not to discriminate on the basis of religion; it's just that the BSA isn't keeping its word.

[Bob White]

Merlyn,

1st, I would appreciate an answer to the question I have posed. What are you trying to accomplish here?

 

Second, there are a lot of people in the navy, I don't know who you spoke with or their relationship to a scout unit. But if a navy base is the chartering organization for a scouting unit then someone had to ask to use the Scouting program. Someone had to sign the charter agreement, someone in the Navy had to read and signed an adult application. Someone representing the charter organization knows and agreed to the values of scouting. The BSA didn't force them to be a charter organization, they chose to, and they chose to abide by the values, policies and methods of the scouting program. So your beef isn't with the BSA. If you think they shouldn't be a charter organization then you should tell them not us. We have nothing to do with a group asking for the program and agreeing to the values. When you tell the Navy, keep in mind that 75% of all the graduates from US military academies were scouts.

 

Now back to question one. Do we get an answer or not?

 

Bob White

 

[evmori]

Merlyn,

Sorry I was away for awhile that's why I didn't respond to your post.

 

"The constitution. The government can't run a "no atheists" group any more than it can run a "no Jews" group."

 

Where is this addressed in the Constitution? Probably the same place where there is no mention of the separation of church & state.

 

I personally don't care whether you are a Scout, former Scout, etc. or not or even what you hope to gain by your posts. If you are like me, this is a forum for debate.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

bob white:

>1st, I would appreciate an answer to the question I have posed. What are you trying to accomplish here?

 

I'm fighting discrimination against atheists.

 

>Second, there are a lot of people in the navy, I don't know who you spoke with or their relationship to a scout unit. But if a navy base is the chartering organization for a scouting unit then someone had to ask to use the Scouting program.

 

Yes, and the BSA signed an agreement not to discriminate on the basis of religion; yet it does just that. That's dishonest.

 

...

>The BSA didn't force them to be a charter organization, they chose to, and they chose to abide by the values, policies and methods of the scouting program.

 

The Navy didn't force them to agree to follow CNFJ 5720.11F, either, yet the FECBSA agreed to follow it, which includes not discriminating on the basis of religion.

 

>f you think they shouldn't be a charter organization then you should tell them not us.

 

It's very telling that you can't even see dishonesty on the part of the BSA.

 

As to ed mori:

>Where is this [unlawful for the gov't to run "no atheists" youth groups] addressed in the Constitution? Probably the same place where there is no mention of the separation of church & state.

 

Yes, the first amendment. Do you know what the courts have said on the issue?

 

By the way "right to a fair trial" and "separation of powers" are more phrases not found in the constitution.

[evmori]

Merlyn,

Yes I know what the courts have said on this.

 

I realize we could debate on this & never reach an agreement. That's why I enjoy this forum.

 

OK. Let's assume the BSA does discriminate (I don't think they do). How does what the BSA does differ from any private organization that has membership requirements? If you don't meet the requirements you can't join or can be expelled! To me, it's pretty simple. The Armed Forces can boot you out if you don't meet their requirements!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

 

[Bob White]

Merlyn, Now we are getting some place I hope, I understand your motivation is to fight discrimination against atheists. My question was how to propose to do that here. What will your posts to a bunch of adults who knowingly volunteer their tiome to lead an organization that we know is based largely on A Duty to God do for your cause.

 

"Yes, and the BSA signed an agreement not to discriminate on the basis of religion; yet it does just that."

 

No it doesn't! Which religion do we discriminate against? The BSA discriminates against a proclaimed lack of religion, thats a big difference. The BSA has said from the very start that we are predicated on a duty to God. Even people who were never scouts know the parts of the Oath and Law. We have been up front with that for over 90-years.

 

If you feel that our discrimination against a lack of religion is illegal I suggest the most constructive thing you can do is gather all your documentation, get the backing of the ACLU or similar organization and take your case to court. But you seem to know alot of facts and figures, perhaps you have the docket number of when this came before the U.S. Supreme Court and they found in favor of the BSA.

 

So if the Supreme Court says you are wrong, what do you expect to accomplish here? Do you expect us to overturn the Supreme Court or do you expect us to take your personal opinion over theirs?

 

Or do you expect to take your lack of knowledge on the scouting program and how organizations use the program and continue to post enough misinformation to muddle the issue?

 

So now which religion is it we discriminate against?

 

Bob White

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

bob white:

>>"Yes, and the BSA signed an agreement not to discriminate on the basis of religion; yet it does just that."

 

>No it doesn't! Which religion do we discriminate against?

 

Yes, it does; when dealing with the government and discrimination, you need to use legal definitions, and the courts have always ruled that excluding atheists is religious discrimination.

 

As way of an example, if the BSA excluded polytheists, that would also be religious discrimination, even though "polytheism" itself isn't a religion, it's a tenet of some religions such as Hinduism. It would be unlawful for the government to run a "no polytheists" group just as it would be for it to run a "no atheists" youth group.

 

using your bizarre and irrational reasoning, discriminating against multiracial people isn't racial discrimination.

 

Now I see you're claiming I've posted "misinformation" without detailing exactly what I've said that's wrong; meanwhile, you post blatantly false information, such as your assertion that discrimination against atheists isn't religious discrimination, and your earlier assertion that Chicago didn't charter discriminatory BSA units in the past.

 

And to ed mori:

> How does what the BSA does differ from any private organization that has membership requirements?

 

Uh, you may have noticed I've been talking about government agencies chartering BSA units; the KKK is a private organization, and if the government ran Klan Youth Corps units, I think people would complain about that, too.

 

However, since you haven't noticed this, and since you seem to have a nonsensical definition of "discrimination", I think it would be pointless to debate you.

[OldGreyEagle]

Bob and Ed,

 

What Merlyn is talking about is whether or not its constitutional for Governmental units to Charter BSA units. He does not dispute our right to have joining requirements, or to discriminate against Atheists as a private organizaiton. He does have a problem when govermental units charter units.

 

If a Public School charters a BSA unit, it must by the Charter Agreement only approve leaders who meet the qualifications BSA dictates. In this case, it has to appoint leaders who will discriminate against Atheists, which as a Governmental unit is is by law prohibited to do. The BSA unit, sponsored by a govermental agency which is prohibited by law to discriminate against Atheists, will discriminate against Atheists.

 

Is that the gist merlyn?

 

[Bob White]

OGE,

 

My point that Merlyn continues to avoid is that his disagreement is with the governemrnt agencies that willing use the scouting program. What does he want of us on this board. Any organization that asks to use the scouting program and agrees to abide by the values and methods recieve a charter. if Merlyn doesn't like the groups that want to use scouting then he should tell them not us.

 

Let me ask this.

 

Would everyone that reads this board that is the executive officer or chartering organization rep for a Pack or Troop that is sponsored by a Governement agency please resond to this post so that we can see how many people there are here that is actually affected by Merlyns concern.

 

Unless there are people such as this on this board Merlyn is spitting in the wind here.

 

One last thing. Keep in mind that the BSA is saying you cannot be a leader if you refuse to aspire to the goals of scouting. You could be a practicing Christian and if you refuse to teach scouts about duty to God or about the chararcter trait of reverence then the BSA can revoke your membership. By Avowing to atheisim you are saying you reject a core purpose of the program.

 

Merlyn overlooks or refuses to accept what the purpose of scouting is. it is not to be Eagle, or go camping or build a fire rubbing sticks together. It is about making "to prepare young people to make ethical choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law".

 

For scouting to accept avowed athiests the BSA would have to change their mission, and that is what I bet is Merlyn's true goal. he does not want athiests in scouting, he wants God out of scouting. So I want to know what gives him the right to dictate what the pupose of our organizqation should be!

 

Bob White

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[berkshirescouter]

I am not A Lawyer but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last week.

 

If the government at a military base would not sponsor a Troop on the basis of the fact that BSA is Faith based isn't that by definition also against freedon of religion? The base must be involved because of security issues. Thus all groups that are for the good of the service are alowed.