Atheist leader to be expelled from BSA

[Bob White]

Merlyn,

Let me ask you a question. What specifically do you hope to accomplish by your participation in this thread?

 

We are a very small sampling of the hundreds of thousands of volunteers. So if you think we we have any authority to change the very structure of American scouting...we don't.

 

You are continually bringing up points that have either already been tried in the courts and found in favor of the BSA, or are in the courts now and nothing we say in this thread will change the outcome.

 

We have no personal knowledge of you, no reason or grounds for a trusting relationship. You come to us with no special qualifications other than your opinion. You very little knowledge of the scouting program other than the fact that we have joining requirements that you don't agree with, and yet you seem surprised that you carry no credibility with us.

 

As a unit volunteer if tomorrow the courts decided that the government agencies could not charter scout units it would not alter my life one iota. My son's troop would still meet on Monday at 7 p.m. and that is the case with nearly every unit in the country. Others would simply transfer adult and youth memberships to another Chartering Organization.

 

As a district volunteer I would be looking for addition charter organizations, but I do that now. So if you think that such a decision would bring scouting to its knees it won't. And even if it did, it would appear from your posts that that you would not find that to be a bad thing

 

So I ask, if you are not a scouter (and you are not), and you don't like scouters (and you don't), and your comments here won't change the program (and they won't), what is your purpose for posting here?

 

Note to DeLukas,

If indeed you are an Eagle Scout you need to rethink the language and lack of courtesy you have shown since your first posting. I have worked with well over a hundred Eagle Scouts in my time in scouting and your behaviour is not reflective of any of them.

 

Bob White

[SR540Beaver]

Merlyn,

 

The best atheists or gays will probably ever be able to do is stop government entities from chartering BSA units. If that happens, 99.9% of those units will have someone step in almost immediately to start a new charter and they will go on without ever skipping a beat.

 

If your agenda is to get scouts to allow membership to gays and atheists, you will probably never achieve your goal. As a private organization, they can choose their membership.

 

I'm not sure which you want, one or the other or both. One you may accomplish, the other is doubtful.

 

I'm a Southern Baptist and a former Pastor of mine is the state convention president and now leads another church. Each week, he and his church has been singled out by a gay/lesbian group for picketing because they want his church to recognize them and accept their lifestyle as normal. They seem to think that if he does this, it will some how open the doors and turn the tide for acceptance of homosexuality in Christian churchs. They are relentless in persuing their agenda of becoming a part of his church and hanging their banner over the doorstep. I know this man and I know that while he totally disagrees with their lifestyle, he respects their right to life that way. He treats them with respect, he meets with them and he tries to befriend them as best he can. But he will never accept their lifestyle as "normal" and will continue to regard it as sinful as he understands the Bible to say it is. There are many gay churches around, but that does not seem to be OK with them. They don't want to go to a gay church. They want a mainstream church to change it's beliefs and accept them. Would it be fair for this Pastor to join the gay church and start trying to change it to a straight church? Would you appreciate his efforts? I doubt it.

 

The policies and requirements are known and it isn't for everyone. If you can't live with the requirements, do your own thing.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

kwc57:

>The best atheists or gays will probably ever be able to do is stop government entities from chartering BSA units. If that happens, 99.9% of those units will have someone step in almost immediately to start a new charter and they will go on without ever skipping a beat.

 

Why isn't the BSA honest enough to not issue charters to government agencies, which the BSA knows can't enforce its religious requirements? If the BSA can do so easily without them, why weren't they dropped years ago?

 

And I don't understand those of you who say you don't understand my motives; if the government were running "whites only" youth groups, would you really be surprised if nonwhites were working to stop that?

[sctmom]

I did not choose the color of my skin or my gender. Except in some rare cases, none of us made those choices. We do choose our beliefs. Meryln, you choose to be an atheist. My sister has choosen to be a pagan (recognizing a goddess instead of God). I have choosen to be a Christian. And I do mean that I CHOOSE it, after years of searching and learning.

 

The original article is about an adult, not a child. He is 19, he is an adult. He has made his choice. He knew the consequences.

 

I usually don't "bash the liberal press" but has anyone else noticed how all the headlines read "Scout being kicked out". He is not a Scout, he is an adult volunteer.

 

 

[Bob White]

"Why isn't the BSA honest enough to not issue charters to government agencies, which the BSA knows can't enforce its religious requirements?"

 

But that's not the case at all Merlyn. Every Charter organization is aware of the scouting membership requirements and if they agree to accept them then they are granted a charter by the BSA. If they choose not to accept the requirements then the BSA does not issue the charter. So there is no dishonesty. At this point in time no court has said that a government entity cannot Charter a unit.

 

"And I don't understand those of you who say you don't understand my motives.."

 

We understand your motive what we don't understand is what you expect to accomplish. We do not set BSA policy, we not make court decisions. We do not for the vast majority disagree with the policy and you are unknown to us so you carry very little weight if any at all in forming our opinion.

 

So the question remains, why do you post here? What do you hope to accomplish here?

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[OldGreyEagle]

Actually I would not be surprised to have non-whites working to stop government support of a whites only youth group. I wouldn't, however, expect to have them posting messages on a forum where most of the readers have no interest at all in chaging their view. I would expect to see them writing letters to governmental officials, picketing the offending group, joining with like minded people to bring this issue to the forefront of public opinion. I would expect them to put time and energy into working with people who can effect change rather than posting to a group who are not going to change.

 

And I guess thats the crux of my bewilderment, this forum is none of that. But, of course you can post here, but I still dont understand why

[littlebillie]

In part, I'd assume Merlyn posts here in the hopes that - among the others who just read and never respond - Exec looks in from time to time, for input, to feel the waters, to see if anything new or useful gets said.

 

So in another part, Merlyn would then parry each and every objection raised here, in the hopes that he might reach that quiet audience with some new logic or old piece of news that may have escaped them to date.

 

Now, I'm just guessing here, mind. See, he's not in it for the immediate discussion, but the long term results. And of course once folks simply start asking him to leave, or questioning why he's here in the first place, well - it may seem to some that he's made his point to the degree that no one can counter him, and that asking him to leave is the next best thing.

 

Personally, I'd say that an atheist kid, or a child of atheist parents, needs just about everything else Scouting has to offer a LOT MORE than a kid whose upbringing has included mainstream religious instruction, and that rather than denying these kids, Scouts should reach out to those who dwell, if you will, in the inner city of the soul...

 

BUT, even though I personally think that an ethical atheist should be able to join (if God can be Mother Nature, He can also be Responsible Citizenship in an Ethical Community Human Societist! :-) and would benefit from the program, I certainly have to grant that there's a lot more to the arguments against atheists in Scouting than gays.

 

OK, ok, ok - that's all side salad. Merlyn's here because he's speaking his conscience, and this is one of the very few appropriate venues for his input.

 

...probably it'd be more meaningful to ask him if he participates in any other pro-atheist activities, than if he was ever a scout. more appropriate to establishing credentials, i'd say.

and since the BSA has chosen not to seek to find definition as any kind of religous organization, even generally, why then, there will be points to be made!

 

just a perspective... I could be wrong about Merlyn. And I could be mistaken in my own views - I'm not perfect or omniscient. so - just a perspective.

[sctmom]

"Personally, I'd say that an atheist kid, or a child of atheist parents, needs just about everything else Scouting has to offer a LOT MORE than a kid whose upbringing has included mainstream religious instruction, and that rather than denying these kids, Scouts should reach out to those who dwell, if you will, in the inner city of the soul... "

 

Mr. Lambert is not a child. He signed an adult volunteer form.

 

 

[Bob White]

I appreciate your perspective littlebillie, however the question is directed at Merlyn specifically and up to this point he has been able to speak for himself. I feel it is important that we not speculate or create answers for him, and guessing what someone else is thinking truly isn't fair to anyone.

 

I would like to know from Merlyn what his purpose is for posting here.

 

As far as professionals looking in, if that is the plan it's a bad one. Professionals didn't make this decison, volunteers did. We pay the professions to to administrate it. The volunteers who made and maintaint this policy are not unit leaders. They are Charter Organization representatives. So this is still not a group that determines the rules that he doesn't like.

 

I appreciate that you think an ethical athiest can join, the fact is he can't. If a scout cannot show evidence of "duty to God" or fullfill his pledge of reverence than he cannot be a member. I an adult does not subscribe to all the values of scouting, they cannot be a member. This is not up to individual opinion.

 

Merlyn you asked for a discussion I have offered one. Let's discus your purpose here.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[tjhammer]

littlebille --- Before I submitted this post I noticed yours... I almost didn't post mine... you did an excellent job of articulating my opinion, and I really should just say "Ditto".

 

But, since it's already written ...

 

 

I do not agree with Merlyn's religious perspective (though sometimes I think I have about as much in common with his perspective as I do some of the diametrically opposing views expressed on this board).

 

When he first started posting here, I thought he was doing so for no reason other than to agitate. However, over the months, I have come to recognize his arguments to be consistent, and really quite basic. I have also recognized that he seems to be "more Scoutlike" in his debate than many others who argue against him (I rarely recall him twisting words, calling names, attempting to chase opponents off, or ignoring a person or part of the debate just because he wants to... while I'm sure he's not without sin on some of these -- interesting choice of words -- I find he is much less guilty of this than many others on the board).

 

What does he hope to accomplish? Well, I suppose he wishes to inform and be informed. I doubt he believes convincing BobWhite to accept atheists in Scouting will immediately institute such a national policy (that's right, isn't it BobWhite?)... but I imagine he thinks arguing his point here, where thousands of Scout leaders contribute and read, might have some marginal effect in informing, and maybe even influencing, how those Scout leaders view his issue.

 

I have been one of the strongest proponents that the BSA is flat wrong in it's policy to ban gay Scouts and Scout leaders. I've used this forum to articulate my perspective, refine my arguments against some articulate responses, learn about the varying perspectives on this issue, and maybe even influence a few people to think differently about this issue (or at the very least, to think about it at all).

 

I have also said along the way that I believe in God, and believe that a Scout's Duty to God is an important part of raising a healthy, quality person and citizen. I also believe questioning one's faith and growing into one's faith is a fundamentally honest and logical exercise.

 

In the beginning, I admitted to this forum that while I thought the determination of the worth of a member and quality of their character should be left up to those people closest to them (parents, unit committee, chartering partner), I also (somewhat hypocritically) believed that the issue of atheists being banned from Scouting should remain a national policy.

 

Over the past several months I have watched Merlyn debate. And I must admit that I have been influenced, in a small way, by his perspective. This does not mean that I share his religious beliefs. Honestly, the attitude of some of Merlyn's staunchest opponents on this board has done more to push me away from their point of view than any "pulling" that Merlyn has done.

 

I have no disagreement with him in one area... public institutions should not be sponsoring BSA units. And they clearly do today... less than a few years ago, and I doubt that they will for much longer. However, I also agree with BobWhite, forcing public institutions out of the CO business will have little to no effect on the BSA membership... parents groups can (and should) easily unite to sponsor a unit when a military base or public school backs out. I also believe that Scouts (as others) should continue to have access to public facilities and accommodations, which is an entirely different issue.

 

As for whether an atheist can be a Scout or Scout leader... I admit, my thinking on this has evolved over the past several months. I'm no longer prepared to make the blanket statement "atheists are impossible of having the character to be Scouts or Scout leaders". I think I prefer to make that determination on a person by person basis, as I meet them.

(This message has been edited by tjhammer)

[ScouterPaul]

Well said TJ. A persons belief in God does not make him or her a good person. Neither does a persons non-belief in God make him or her a bad person. I personally know numerous people who profess to be Christian or God fearing who I would not turn my back on. On the other hand I know atheists who I would trust any of my children to. What is more impotant to me is the persons character, which is not dependent on their belief in God.

[littlebillie]

my apologies for the following confusions...

 

sctmon "Mr. Lambert is not a child. He signed an adult volunteer form." I probably wasn't clear - I was making a general statement about kids, atheism and Scouting, not Mr. Lambert. I was trying to make the point that these kids might be seen to be at risk, and so possibly deserving a more Scout attention than less. Sorry for any confusion.

 

Bob White "I appreciate that you think an ethical athiest can join..." What I actually wrote was "BUT, even though I personally think that an ethical atheist should be able to join (if God can

be Mother Nature, He can also be Responsible Citizenship in an Ethical Community Human Societist! :-) and would benefit from the program, I certainly have to grant that there's a lot more to the arguments against atheists in Scouting than gays." I was hoping that this would convery the message that I think they should BE ABLE to join, but I acknowledge that the arguments against atheists are in fact stronger (in my view) than the arguments against gays. Regardless, and again, I think these kids need Scouting MORE, and wish there were some robust way to accommodate them. I respect the calls that SCOTUS has made, but even so, I also believe that Exec should consider some changes...

 

and thanks...

 

tjhammer, thanks for the kind words, means a lot coming from one of the stalwarts like you.

 

 

 

 

 

[Rooster7]

What is more impotant to me is the persons character, which is not dependent on their belief in God.

 

I definitely disagree with that statement. By the world's standards of what is "good character", I suppose few folks would argue with you. However, to me, a man of good character knows and loves God.

[Bob White]

TJHammer and ScouterPaul,

 

I think you miss the point. The BSA does not say that if you are athiest or homosexual that you are a bad person (it is unfortunate we have some volunteers who say that, but they do not represent the BSA). The programs stance is that in order to lead scouts in a value based program you have to believe in those values and set the example in your life for the scouts to follow. If you are a scout and these are the values of scouting then you need to embrace those values. It is about the the individuals ability to teach or achieve the goals of the program, it is not about the value of the individual.

 

If the purpose of the program were to be a swimmer, and you absolutely refused to get in the water, then there is no point in you being in the program. If your job was to teach the swimmer, and you did not believe that people should swim, then there is no point in hiring you as a swim instructor. We do not ask the youth to be a great swimmer, we ask that they want to swim and be willing to get in the water. We even accept different strokes for different folks.

 

We don't expect every instructor to be a great swimmer. We ask that they be able to get in the water with a positive attitude and show the youth that swimming is a good thing.

 

The BSA has never accused the people who do not meet the membership requirements as being bad, just unable to achieve the goals of the program.

 

I am surprised that Merlyn is suddenly unable to speak for himself. I understand his motivation, I do not understand what he expects to accomplish in this thread.

 

Why should we as leaders value his view enough to change our minds when he does not know or understand the program beyond this one issue. Why address the issue to us when we do not determine the mission of the program, we volunteer to carry it out. We do not make the laws or interpret the constitution. So what is he trying to accomplish here? I would appreciate him anwering for himself.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Rooster7]

An atheist is a human being like the rest of us, as is the homosexual. We all have the potential to do good or bad. Are homosexuals bad? No more than anyone else who refuses to recognize his sin. No more than the adulterer who thinks he's justified. Is homosexuality bad? In mind, it is definitely bad. In fact, I must assume that BSA feels the same way since they describe homosexuals as inappropriate role models. Likewise, I have serious reservations about any individual who refuses to recognize God. If that's extreme, then the world has decayed a lot faster than I thought possible.