Atheist leader to be expelled from BSA

[sctmom]

Merlyn writes:

"And didn't you question how Schmidt got to be a high-ranking BSA official with such an opinion? Do you think the response would have been the same if he had said it about Jews or blacks or Catholics? Could it be that having a bigoted opinion against atheists is no impediment to being a high-ranking BSA official? And why is that? Why is it OK to foment hatred of an entire group of people due to their religious opinions, as long as it's the "wrong" religious opinions? "

 

I am not surprised at the opinions of any one anymore, diappointed maybe but not surprised.

 

Let's assume for argument's sake he did say the quote. So what? That proves what?

Why are you so surprised he got to be a high ranking BSA official?

 

I can guarentee you that everyone of us knows or knows of a high ranking official in a business or other type organization, that if the truth be known you would be shocked at that person's values, habits and/or past.

 

I know someone who goes to a family nudist camp a lot. He said you would be surprised at the number of high ranking business people that go there and at the church officials that go there. Something they do not advertise to the public because it is consider taboo.

 

So to be surprised that this guy got as high as you claim in BSA with such an attitude is not surprising.

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

sctmom on camp fire law:

>They aren't forced to say it, but if it is said by the majority at every meeting aren't we at the same place of saying the Pledge of Allegiance with "under God"?

 

True, it's similar, though camp fire doesn't throw out atheists like the BSA. The pledge decision is more of a problem because of government involvement; in a similar vein, the government ran into problems with the Boys & Girls Clubs running their Morale, Welfare, and Recreation department because their membership cards had "I believe in god" on them:

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2002/Aug/13/ln/ln07a.html

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

sctmom:

>Let's assume for argument's sake he did say the quote. So what? That proves what?

 

How bigoted can the leadership of an organization become before you would consider leaving? Would you join an organization that admitted all boys except Jews? Would you leave it if perfectly nice Jewish boys were thrown out as soon as it was discovered they were Jewish? Would you leave if one of its leaders said no Jews could be good citizens and all of them were dishonest, and that leader wasn't replaced? Would you want a wholly-owned subsidiary of this organization to teach ethics to Jewish and non-Jewish kids in public schools?

 

Really, don't you see any problem? All I've done above is change the way the BSA treats atheists to Jews; if you'd be repelled by such an organization's treatment of Jews, why is it OK to treat atheists this way? If you would refuse to belong to a group that treated Jews this way, why do you belong to a group that treats atheists this way?

[OldGreyEagle]

I know naught of Mr Schmidt and I dont know exactly what he said, but sometimes people say things they dont mean, or wouldnt if they had had time to think about it. Take a look at the string of apologies offered on this forum.

 

I remember a presidential candidate (Gerald Ford, and Eagle Scout as well) who in a debate with Jimmy Carter said that Poland was not under communist control. If I remember right, the USSR was full of vim and vigor at the time and Poland was most definitely under Communist control. Yet I wouldnt say all republicans are geo-politically challeneged

 

I remember Alexander Haig, Chief of Staff to Ronald Reagan when Reagon was shot. He most clearly and definitively said he was in charge, completely ignoring the Vice-Presidents stake in the whole deal. Yet I wouldnt say all republicans are constitutionally challenged.

 

I remember President Bill Clinton saying I did not have sex with that woman. Yet I dont beleive all democratrs are congenital liars, just as I remember #41 Bush saying "read my lips, no new taxes" and taxes were raised.

 

I dont beleive its correct to broadly brush everyone in a group with one persons comment, particularly when said in an emotional context.

 

 

[sctmom]

 

"Would you join an organization that admitted all boys except Jews?"

Grew up in such an organization, went to school with no Jews, no atheists, no blacks.

 

"How bigoted can the leadership of an organization become before you would consider leaving?"

Well, let's see first I have to leave my family because my father is the biggest bigot I know.

Then I have to leave my job because of the bigotry of some of the good ol' boys at from top to bottom.

I have to take my child out of public school because some of the top dogs are bigots (they are subtle but still are bigots).

I have to quit going to stores because all the businesses have some type of bigots or something I don't agree with. I have to have my utilities cut off because of their bigotry.

 

So, I guess I need to become a hermit (hermitess?) living off the land in the wilderness. Not sure where this will be since there are many, many bigots in the government.

 

I have nothing against atheists. I do not fear them, hate them, or think they are misguided.

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

>"Would you join an organization that admitted all boys except Jews?"

>Grew up in such an organization, went to school with no Jews, no atheists, no blacks.

 

Uh, no. There's a difference between a lack of Jews due to no Jews living in the area, and refusing membership to Jews. And I doubt there were no atheists; you just didn't know.

 

>"How bigoted can the leadership of an organization become before you would consider leaving?"

>Well, let's see first I have to leave my family because my father is the biggest bigot I know.

>Then I have to leave my job because of the bigotry of some of the good ol' boys at from top to bottom.

>I have to take my child out of public school because some of the top dogs are bigots (they are subtle but still are bigots).

>I have to quit going to stores because all the businesses have some type of bigots or something I don't agree with. I have to have my utilities cut off because of their bigotry.

 

>So, I guess I need to become a hermit (hermitess?) living off the land in the wilderness. Not sure where this will be since there are many, many bigots in the government.

 

Of course, with your attitude, you can defend membership in the KKK equally well.

 

>I have nothing against atheists. I do not fear them, hate them, or think they are misguided.

 

Then why do you belong to an organization that does?

[sctmom]

"Uh, no. There's a difference between a lack of Jews due to no Jews living in the area, and refusing membership to Jews. And I doubt there were no atheists; you just didn't know. "

 

 

Uh, wrong. Private school, not a church based one, but we said prayer every day and for every occasion. If a Jewish family showed up to apply, they would have been turned away. Same with blacks. We discriminated and were proud of it.

 

 

"Of course, with your attitude, you can defend membership in the KKK equally well. "

 

Yes, people can be a member of the KKK if they want. I don't believe in ANYTHING they stand for so I don't belong. For those who don't believe it, the KKK is still around and still march periodically.

 

I do believe that BSA is a private organization. I believe that has been proven. I do not agree with their stance on homosexuals, but that does not undermine all the good things they do. Sure there are some people who go over the top with their comments about atheists and homosexuals. But as OGE has pointed out, you can't say the whole organization is that way because one person said something stupid.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob White]

Keep in mind Merlyn is not a scouter. He is someone trying to create fractures within scouting to promote a political agenda.. No one in scouting would characterize a District Committee Chair as a high ranking scouting official. At best Mr. Schmidt is a high ranking local community volunteer. There are several hundred local District Committee Chairs in the country. They are administrators of local scouting but are not spokespersons for or high ranking officials of the BSA.

 

 

Bob White

 

[Compass]

Aaaaaaah, another "stealth bomber" adult.

[CubsRgr8]

Merlyn,

 

The statement that the S4A press release attributes to Mr. Schmidt slanders the honesty of atheists. I have found atheists to be no more or less honest than theists or agnostics. If I ever hear such a comment from an adult leader or a scout, I will discuss with them how slander does not reflect the values that scouting teaches.

 

PS The trouble with your substitution story is that while being a Jew is physical reality which a person has no control over, being a theist, an agnostic, or an atheist is a decision that a person can change at will.

(This message has been edited by CubsRgr8)

[SR540Beaver]

Merlyn,

 

My company has an internet filter on our network that limits viewing many sites. I can't see the ScoutsForAll site right now, but will check it from home tonight. I will take their press release with a grain of salt however. When I said credible source, I meant a mainstream news organization like the AP or CNN. I've yet to see this comment in any news article. ScoutsForAll is an organization that has a political axe to grind with the BSA, so they will have their own particular spin on the subject that lends itself to suspicion.

[Rooster7]

Merlyn,

 

but Rooster has avoided even criticizing Schmidt's statement.

 

Look at my post on page 9 of this thread (it's addressed in a response to kwc57). It may not be what you want to hear, but I did criticize the statement. However, I have no good reason to believe that Mr. Schmidt ever said it. I only have the word of a man who stakes claim to a value system created by man and based on the relative morality of the day. To be honest, I'm not sure what to believe, about you or the hypothetical man in Mr. Schmidt's statement. You and he maybe the most honest people in the world, or not. What do I know about you or he to formulate an opinion? The only things that I do know are this - you both think God is a figment of people's imagination. And apparently, you both feel that mankind can define right and wrong without any insight from God (since he doesn't exist). That's a pretty strange combination of beliefs. So, collectively, the same people who put their faith in an imaginary being are able to work with others to determine a moral code that is righteous. Interesting concept.

 

The "Scouting For All" websiteyeah right, now that's an unbiased source that you can trust (yes, my tongue is not only in my cheek, I may have caused a puncture wound).

 

Tjhammer,

 

When did Scouting become a "faith-based organization"?

 

The day BSA stated that boy scouts had a "Duty to God". I guess that was about 92 years ago. The phrase "faith-based" can be treated generically. It doesn't mean one faith rules the day. It simply means that the organization encourages it members to drawn up their faith. Bob correctly notes several BSA references where the phrase "value-based" is used. That's all fine and well, but the BSA position statement uses the term "faith-based". Either way, what's the point? If it is "faith-based", how would it change anything, within or outside of Scouting?

[acco40]

Merlyn,

 

Your comment, "Then why do you belong to an organization that does?" (i.e. hate atheists) needs a rebuttal. The BSA, or any organization for that matter, does not have the capacity to love or hate. Only the members of that organization do.

 

I have found that the Scouting program is a great asset to many. To me there is a slight difference between requiring a belief in God and discrimination against Jews, Blacks, etc. Being Black or Jewish (if you consider it a race) etc. is an innate quality of an individual. I believe homosexuality is another innate quality of an individual and am sorry that the BSA heirarchy believes that they should not be allowed to become leaders. However, I will be obedient (part of the Scout law) and obey that "law" and as stated in the Boy Scout Law "If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them." and work to get it changed.

 

Having a belief is not an innate quality. Measuring a belief is difficult. The BSA requirement gives one a great deal of latitude with respect to religion. For example, my Webelos Cub Scouts can meditate daily and do a service project for someone and discuss it for their "religious" requirement to obtain their Webelos Badge. I for one, do not feel that character, morals, etc. are mutually exclusive with agnostics or atheists. However, I am not about to throw out the baby (scouting) with the bath water (religious bigots) because some BSA yahoo makes idiotic statements about wallets.

 

I also do not have a bunker mentality and believe you are out to destroy scouting (maybe I am naive). The US Army practiced discrimination for a long time but look at it now. It is probably the best organization in the country with respect to equal opportunity and equality with respect to race. I believe scouting will change. I know scouting will change. The only question is how much and when.

 

I suggest you put your tireless energies into improving scouting and not trying to tear it down. I would not tolerate any adult leader or youth in my den or troop who was intolerant to atheists. (I like that, I would not tolerate intolerance! What does that say about me!)

 

Take a look at a Boy Scouts of America adult application. Nowhere does it ask about your religious affilitation, your belief (if any) in God, etc. We are a very diverse group from many backgrounds. Look at our debates about denominational prayer! We don't all think alike for goodness sakes. Take the Philmont grace, "For food, for raiment, for life, for opportunity, for friendship & fellowship, we thank, Thee, O Lord." Can an atheist give thanks, you betcha! Who do they give thanks to? Whomever or whatever they wish.

 

(This message has been edited by acco40)

[ASM7]

Bria ah Merlyn

 

Just a few questions for you.

 

Are you a Scouter?

 

Have you ever been a Scout?

 

Do you believe in God?

 

If you answered no to the first two questions, why participate in this forum of dedicated Scouters? You don't seem to have anything constructive to add.

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

>I suggest you put your tireless energies into improving scouting and not trying to tear it down.

 

What I'm doing is trying to STOP discrimination against atheists by my own government. I don't consider that "tearing down" anything.

 

>I would not tolerate any adult leader or youth in my den or troop who was intolerant to atheists.

 

Can atheists join your den or troop? The BSA won't let you admit atheists even if you want them.