Atheist leader to be expelled from BSA

[eisely]

This article comes from Bremerton, Washington. I gather that this young man is over eighteen and registered as an adult. Interestingly, his eagle board passed him even though he said to the board that he was an atheist. This one has not headed for court yet and the article does not mention litigation. I presume that BSA would win in court. Interesting.

 

_________________________________-

 

In Darrell Lambert's world, "Capture the Flag" is the ultimate entertainment. A meal cooked over an open fire is gourmet cuisine. And there's no higher honor than the Eagle.

 

But there's no god.

 

And that's unacceptable to the Boy Scouts, an organization he loves and calls "the best place in the world for kids."

 

The 19-year-old Port Orchard resident, an atheist and a leader in Port Orchard's Troop 1531, has been given a week by the Boy Scout's regional governing executive to declare belief in a supreme being and comply with Scout policy, or quit being a Scout leader.

 

"We've asked him to search his heart, to confer with family members to give this great thought before any decision is made," said Brad Farmer, council Scout executive of Chief Seattle Council, Boy Scouts of America. "If he says he's an avowed atheist, he does not meet the standards of membership of our traditional programs and as such cannot participate. We would return his registration fee to him and wish him the best."

 

Lambert can give them his answer: No.

 

If he professed belief in a supreme being, it would be a lie.

 

"I wouldn't be a good Scout then, would I?" he said.

 

At a meeting of his troop Monday at the chapel of the Washington Veterans Home in Retsil, about a dozen moms and dads agreed to support Lambert, even if it meant risking their troop's association with the Boy Scouts of America.

 

"He's willing to take care of our boys, our country, our land. What more could we ask?" said Tina Nau of Port Orchard. "I don't see where religious beliefs come into play."

 

But, said Mark Hunter, a spokesman for Chief Seattle Council, "We recognize as a faith-based organization that to be the best kind of citizen we need to recognize a higher being."

 

The controversy started about three weeks ago when it came out at a leadership training seminar at Camp Parsons on the Olympic Peninsula that Lambert was an atheist.

 

In a casual conversation and again in an official meeting of the seminar, Lambert argued with a Scout leader from a different troop about whether Boy Scouts who don't profess belief in a supreme being should be expelled. Lambert argued that Scouting should be open to any boy, regardless. The other leader, who could not be reached for comment, said nonbelief is a violation of the Scout law and the Scout oath.

 

In the oath, Scouts promise "to do my duty to God and my country." The law says "a Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others."

 

When Lambert says the oath, he omits the part about a god.

 

Lambert knows the oath and the law well. He surprised his mom, Trish, nine years ago by asking to join Scouts.

 

"Darrell was a real loner. He was real intelligent and learned things real quick, but he liked to be alone, and this was a group we're talking about," his mom said. "I kept thinking he would quit."

 

At first, Darrell didn't join in, but with encouragement from his den leaders and Scoutmasters, he joined, and shined, in the activities.

 

"It was like watching a soaring eagle, all of a sudden he was in leadership positions and guiding other boys. It helped him a lot," said Trish Lambert, who has been Troop 1531's scoutmaster for three years.

 

The South Kitsap High School graduate with broad shoulders and a blond buzz cut worked his way to Eagle Scout last year, earning 37 merit badges and holding every leadership position in Troop 1531. Even if his position as a Scout leader is revoked, Lambert cannot lose his rank as Eagle Scout.

 

Lambert said over the years, Scouts gave him something to do nearly every night of the week, with camping trips most weekends.

 

"It kept me out of trouble. In high school, when my friends were out partying and getting into trouble, I was out chasing Scouts around in the woods, playing Capture the Flag," he said.

 

When the opportunity arose this fall to become a leader in Troop 1531, Lambert registered, "glossing over" the "declaration of religious principle" section on the form.

 

Lambert wasn't worried; he informed the Scout leaders who sat on his Eagle Scout review board that he did not believe in a supreme being. The eight leaders approved Lambert's Eagle award anyway.

 

"It wasn't an issue," said Evie Mercer, who sat on the review board and is the mother of a 15-year-old boy in Troop 1531. In fact, because none of the adults asked about his nonbelief, Lambert brought it up during the board.

 

"That to me said a lot about him," said Mercer.

 

So when an official from Farmer's office contacted Lambert on Oct. 21 about his nonbelief, the Scout was surprised.

 

Farmer and Lambert have had several conversations over the past week. On Monday, Farmer told Lambert he had a week to think about whether he had a belief in a supreme being.

 

"We give great latitude to our members as adult leaders as to what they profess as belief," said Farmer. "It can be through a church or religion or greatly unstructured. Mother Nature would be acceptable."

 

If Lambert does not profess a belief, his leader registration fee ($7) will be refunded and his registration revoked. There is an appeals process, but Farmer said he wasn't sure of its details. He also didn't know if any other Scouts had been dismissed for nonbelief.

 

"I just don't know. We don't keep records of that," he said.

 

Scott Cozza, an organizer of Scouting For All, a California-based organization advocating for gay and atheist Scouts, said he gets hundreds of phone calls each year from Scouts who have been expelled. About 60 percent are from gay Scouts; 40 percent from atheists.

 

Lambert has enlisted Cozza's help in his fight. At the meeting Monday, the parents in Troop 1531 told Lambert that they would write a letter of protest to Farmer, too.

 

"Jacob is right on the edge of his Eagle, and I don't know how that would affect him," said Joanne Warren, whose 16-year-old son counts Lambert as his mentor. "But I'm sure if he had to make the choice, Darrell or Eagle Scout, he would choose you Darrell, hands down."

 

Published in The Sun: 10/29/2002

 

[Bob White]

It's interesting that this young man feels that by saying he has a belief in a superior being when in fact he does not would make him a bad scout. But when he doesn't subscribe to all of the scout laws and a third of the oath he thinks he is not being a bad scout.

 

What kind of citizenship does he practice if he feels he only has to follow the laws that suit him personnally?

 

Where has the scouting program said that one value is less important than the others or that as a scout or leader you need not acept all the valuse of the program? I hope the young man takes the time he needs to re-evaluate his philosophies and can find room for a belief that the values we profess to are given us by a greater power.

 

Until that time he is misrepresenting both himself and the scouting program by remaining a member.

 

Bob White

[ASM7]

I can see where a young scout just joining, would be able to say the oath each week and not put a lot of credence in the meaning. I don't see how as he grows older he would be able to say it and continue with the program. How did this get past the BORs previously. The Scout leaders are not doing their job in promoting duty to God. What organization charters the troop? Is the Mother (Scoutmaster) a beleiver? If not, then she needs to go also.

 

The Tenderfoot rank is the only rank where the scout does not have to "Denonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life". This needs to be changed. Even the Scout joining requirements has the new Scout to agree to live by the Oath and Law.

 

I understand that maybe he changed his belief after getting Eagle, but he should not be allowed to lead if he does not comply. If he did beleive this way before getting Eagle then he and all of the BOR members will have to live with the fact that none of them did their jobs. The Eagle BOR has to be unanimous. This should really be looked at by the District or Council Advancement Committee of which one member should be on the Eagle BOR. Something is really wrong here.

 

Doug

[Rooster7]

eisely,

 

Do you really miss Merlyn that much?

 

Another example where Bob White and I agree (not that he cares - I know Bob wants that qualifier made clear. )...

 

Interestingly, Mr. Lambert refused to lie because it wasn't Scout-like. Yet, he must have lived a lie for six or seven years. Furthermore, he "glossed over" the religious principle section of his adult application. Where I come from, that's a form of lying too.

 

I stand by BSA and the belief (the same belief that BSA has held for more than 90 years) that a Scout must believe in God to become a true man of character. I'm just sad that it's become so watered down over the years that belief in "Mother Nature" qualifies. As far as I'm concerned, if his entire troop dropped out in protest (as it appears that they are threatening to do), I say it's probably for the betterment of their council. BSA doesn't need troops or individuals among its ranks that are opposed to their goals.

 

So Bob, is the article right? Mr. Lambert cannot lose his Eagle status?

 

Duty to God, Country, and FamilyI pray BSA will remain firm in its stance.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[Bob White]

There have been occassions in the past where the BSA has removed the Eagle Rank from members and non members. The BSA has the authority to do this because the Eagle is presented by the BSA not by the troop as other ranks. It does not happen often and is handled on a case by case basis.

 

Bob White

 

[ASM7]

Her's the link to the newspaper article with a picture of Darrell Lambert.

 

http://www.thesunlink.com/news/2002/october/1029eaglescout.html.

 

Doug

[acco40]

What to do about an organization that you really like, enjoy, and has merit but you do not believe in 100% of the tenets?

 

Rooster, ASM7 & Bob White, do you respect and defend the rights of others to practice their own beliefs? (i.e. do you follow the Boy Scout Oath?)

 

If so, what if those beliefs are atheism?

 

Are you ignoring one third of the oath by not respecting this young mans beliefs?

 

Rooster7, if you read the article closely, the young man skipped over parts of the oath & law so to accuse him of lying is a little harsh in my book.

 

What I object to, is that the young man must have known about the Law, Oath, Reverent, Duty to God, etc. If he did not believe in that, work within the system to change it. Accept the consequences if it does not change.

 

To me it boils down to the age old "good works" vs. "faith" dicotomy that philosophers have been debating for centuries.

 

 

[Rooster7]

Try this one instead

 

http://www.thesunlink.com/news/2002/october/1029eaglescout.html

 

ASM7 had a dot on the end which invalidates the URL

 

acco40,

 

I am familiar with the "good works" verses "faith" debate, but I fail to see how it has anything to do with this boy. I also fail to see how "not respecting this boy's aims or methods" cheapens my belief in the Scout Oath. You have not drawn a valid correlation here.

[Rooster7]

To be more blunt, I don't respect atheists. I respect their right to live, breath, and enjoy God's world like the rest of us. Yet, I don't respect their rebelliousness, against what's plain to see. God does exist. If they want to form a club, so be it, but don't force that rebellion on the rest of us.

[Compass]

And that's unacceptable to the Boy Scouts

 

And at what point was this a surprise to Mr. Lambert?

 

If he professed belief in a supreme being, it would be a lie.

 

"I wouldn't be a good Scout then, would I?" he said.

 

Excuse me, but he was already living a lie, therefore wasn't a good Scout for two big reasons.

 

When the opportunity arose this fall to become a leader in Troop 1531, Lambert registered, "glossing over" the "declaration of religious principle" section on the form.

 

There you have it.

 

"It wasn't an issue," said Evie Mercer, who sat on the review board and is the mother of a 15-year-old boy in Troop 1531. In fact, because none of the adults asked about his nonbelief, Lambert brought it up during the board.

 

"That to me said a lot about him," said Mercer.

 

And that says a lot about them.

 

[acco40]

"I don't respect atheists."

 

From the Meaning of the Boy Scout Oath

(Boy Scout Handbook)

 

. . . To do my duty to God . . .

 

Your family and religious leaders teach you about God and the ways you can serve. You do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teachings every day and by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs.

 

To me, if you do not respect an atheist's beliefs, you do not follow the Boy Scout Oath.

[eisely]

Mr. Lambert's statements and behaviour are inconsistent, and that constitutes a level of deception or dishonesty that is not worthy. But then, who among us is always consistent all the time? A little hypocrisy goes a long way in maintaining civil relations. Having said that, BSA is correct in enforcing its policies. Too bad that this young man will be turned away. Who knows where he might come out in his beliefs in a few years?

[SR540Beaver]

acco40,

 

And just what would an atheist's belief be? Not in God. Their "belief" is denying the existence of God. Since Scouting requires a belief in God and an Atheist does not believe in God, it is kind of difficult for an atheist to be a Scout according to the rules. That does not mean that a Scout can not respect the athiest's right to a lack of belief, it just means the athiest can not be a Scout.

[CubsRgr8]

What really puts the burr under my saddle about Mr. Lambert is the FACT that he filled out and signed an adult application when he turned 18, an application which clearly spells out what is required of him if he wants to serve as a leader. His mother didn't fill it out and sign it for him, he did, and of his own volition. It just grinds my gears!

[acco40]

kwc57,

 

I agree with you 100%. Well, not really. An atheist CAN be a Scout, witness, Mr. Lambert. An atheist MAY not be a Scout, witness the Scout Oath.

 

My contention is that those who do not respect Mr. Lambert's beliefs MAY not be a Scout either because they do not respect the beliefs of others.