The Origin of Man

[littlebillie]

"If you believe that man evolved, then you MUST

believe that God did not create man."

 

hmmm "this man can know the mind and purpose of

God, and has decided what God can, would, and could do! Darwin has now defined God with his own finite mind!"

 

 

seems like the same thing!

 

DeMann has decided that - for whatever reason - God cannot have directed evolution to produce man.

 

I believe that He can - and has - and fail to see ANY reason why this cannot be...

 

 

 

 

[DeMann]

Divine election? As in predestination? How are you relating that to creation?

 

I am not equating it to evolution- to topics that seem inconsistant within the Bible. My point is that I dont feel that the Bible has any inconsistancies in it.

 

Read these quotes from scientists that promote evolution and begin investigating the "evidence" for evolution on your own:

 

Here we see what is cautioned in the Bible, the teaching for doctrine the traditions of men.

 

 

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

DeMann,

 

My words that you quoted and thanked me for were not in support of your view. They were a response to OGE of what I thought your view of the link between Creation and Salvation would be. You ignored the rest of my post that said I believe God is the Creator, but that scientific evidence shows the possibility that he used evolution over a huge period of time in the process. I personally believe that man is unique in the process.

 

I still don't follow you on the divine election thing. Are you just saying that it is another issue from the Bible that people disagree over? I assume you mean that God selects who will be saved as opposed to the Biblical teaching of free will and that God desires all men to come to him with the knowledge that not all men will. There is a difference between God having foreknowledge and selecting. Not that I want to open another can of worms that can never be settled like Creation, but......if you believe that their was no need for Salvation if the world evolved instead of the account in Genesis, then likewise, there is no need for Salvation if God already decided who he would save and who he would reject. That is kind of like Iraqi elections where Saddam is "elected" by a 100% vote. Whats the point of having the election if the outcome is already known? Why would God provide a means of Salvation and give man free will to accept or reject Him if he laready decided before the creation who he would accept and who he would reject? Please don't fall back on the old, "because the Bible says it". The Bible also says the other side too.

[packsaddle]

What happened to Zorn?

[littlebillie]

kwc57,

 

if you were an omniscient, omnipotent being WHO HAD GIVEN HIS CREATIONS FREE WILL, you would KNOW who would be doing the right stuff to save, and who wouldn't (um - the Santa Claus effect :-)

 

So, where does pre-knowledge leave off, and predestination begin? arguably, if He does nothing to change the path He knows you to be on, He has destined you to a certain end - but is that truly predestination?

 

Sticky isssue.

 

Kinda like the whole Creation thing. If God made the world already old (um, like pre-aged jeans?), then it would be billions of years old, even if it only took Him a day to creat it...

 

some difficult perspectives to try to view from, eh?

[SR540Beaver]

packsaddle,

 

The forum owner informed everyone that Zorn and Yaworski were one in the same person presenting himself as two different people. He did not ban either ID, just wanted people to be aware of what our multi-personality rabel-rouser was up to. Neither Zorn or Yaworski has posted since being outted. I'm sure he will show up under a new name eventually.

 

littlebillie,

 

In my way of thinking, there is still a difference between foreknowledge and election. One says that because God is God, he already knows the outcome. The other says that he made the choice of who he wants and who he rejects. While subtle, there is a difference. While the Bible mentions the word "elect", I can't square it with other verses that says we can affect the outcome of situations (change the mind of God) thru prayer and petition or that God "desires" all men to come to Him. If He has already decided who will be saved and who won't, then why would He desire ALL men to come to Him. He is God, if He wants ALL men, then He could have elected all men and Jesus's sacrifice for our sins and the resulting salvation wouldn't be needed. Interesting puzzle. I don't know that I would call it a discrepency in the Bible as much as I would say we just don't fully understand the intent of the election verses. There is much more Bible evidence for free will than for election.

[Rooster7]

Why would God provide a means of Salvation and give man free will to accept or reject Him if he already decided before the creation who he would accept and who he would reject? Please don't fall back on the old, "because the Bible says it". The Bible also says the other side too.

 

SORRY - for jumping in DeMann, but allow me to take a swing at this:

 

Before I answer, I must ask you - What other side? The Bible is very consistent. I don't see two sides presented in the Bible.

 

Yes, the short and easy answer (and sometimes it's the only answer I have) is - The Bible says it. I believe it. There are a couple of mysteries that I feel very few men, if any, understand (of course, most scientists could say the same thing concerning most of their theories). For example, I think the concept of the Trinity is difficult, if not impossible for man to define. Likewise, the concept of eternity is beyond my comprehension (on the other hand, so is a finite universe)either way, I'm baffled. Unfortunately, that declaration opens the door for a whole bunch of folks to claim that there is no logic behind my faith. I think that is a false assumption, but its one I've seen some folks make. But I digressI don't think predestination is that big of a mystery.

 

It's to glorify God. God created us to worship him. In order for us to truly worship Him, we must understand our relationship to Him. So, yes, God allows us to live our lives, knowing full well who will eventually come to Him. If He simply made the future happen, then we would not experience salvation, or understand our need for it. We wouldn't understand or appreciate our relationship with Him. We would not be able to worship Him from the proper perspective.

[OldGreyEagle]

I ask the indulgence of anyone who thinks this is a stupid question, but I have always wanted to know the explanation of the following question.

 

First off, I am not a biblical literalist, but I do believe it was divinely inspired.

 

If Adam and Eve were the first two human beings, and Cain and Abel were their sons, who did Cain and Abel marry? It had to be their sisters. If this is true, why didnt all sorts of genetic problems occur?

 

I have always wondered what the explanation was and it seems the posters here have the most knowledge of this subject that I have ever met.

 

Again, I am not trying to be "funny", I would like to know what the explanation is,

[SR540Beaver]

Rooster,

 

With all due respect, I don't think you answered the question. I agree with most of what you said. The other side I speak of is free will as opposed to divine election. One (free will) says that God has given us the choice to accept or reject him and that we are responsible for where we spend eternity. The other (election) says that regardless of what you do, God has made a choice that person A is going to heaven and person B is going to hell. Those are two totally different concepts from the same Book. While God may know ultimately who will accept and reject him, the question is, was it a freely made choice by man or was it a forced decision by God? There is an old joke about those who believe in predestination. "What did the predestination believer say after falling down a flight of stairs? Boy, I'm glad that's behind me now!"

 

OGE,

 

Good question and one that has baffled people since the Bible has been read. I for one, even with my degree in religion don't want to touch it with a ten foot pole. I've heard all sorts of explanations over the years. Ranging from no defects because they were perfect and the gene pool wasn't yet diluted to God allowed incest relations to populate the earth before later giving the Law that would condemn it. Poor explanations that I do not subscribe to. The other view that drives the creationist folks crazy is that the creation account in Genesis is alligorical and that Adam and Eve represented mankind as a whole.

 

That is ALL I have to say on it as I don't pretend to have any answers to this question myself.

[NJCubScouter]

OGE, regarding Genesis 4 (Cain and Able), it is even more baffling than that. It says Eve bore Cain, then she bore Able, then Cain slew Able. It hasn't said anything about any daughters or grandaughters of Adam and Eve, or any spouse or children of Able. So, if the account is complete, at that point it seems that Cain and his parents are the only people in the world. Then, when he is cast out of the land of his parents for killing Able, God puts a mark on him so he won't have to be concerned about anyone killing him. Who are these anyones? Did Adam and Eve actually have other children, and/or Able had children, who are not mentioned, but whose offspring made up a whole population by the time of Cain's adulthood? Or are these anyones unrelated to Adam and Eve, which of course would mean that they were not uniquely the "first people." And then, of course, one of these anyones becomes Cain's wife. Oh, and then after Cain's son is born, Cain is building a city. A city! For who? So far the only people alive who we know by name (or other specific reference) are Adam, Eve, Cain, his wife and his son (Enoch I believe.) Either it's a very small city, or something else is going on.

 

And another thing, it is my understanding that in the original Hebrew, "adam" meant "the man." (Look at the New International Version of the Bible at www.biblegateway.com.) So did some later translator decide that "the man" had a name, Adam, when the writer meant only "the man," without a name?

 

To me, all signs point to allegory.

[Rooster7]

While God may know ultimately who will accept and reject him, the question is, was it a freely made choice by man or was it a forced decision by God?

 

I think all of man was given free will to accept or reject God. However, I also believe that God's power and foreknowledge has no limits. Before God gave man the ability to accept or reject Him, He foresaw who would seek and respond to Him. This is what I think the Bible speaks of when it uses the terms like predestination and elect. However, I am not a Bible scholar...my interpretation could be wrong. The book of Romans speaks to this question directly. It's a hard teaching and I don't pretend to understand all of God's ways. In fact, the Bible tells us, I believe it's in Proverbs, that God's ways are not our ways. We ought not think we can comprehend everything he does or why he does it.

 

I am posting some key verses from Romans. It has been my experience that the readers of these verses react in one of two ways, they either get down on their knees and pray, or they reject the God of the Bible:

 

Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? Romans 9:10-21

 

OGE,

 

I think your explanation is possible. As to your concern about genetic defects, remember God's hand is capable of doing as he pleases. Perhaps he just willed it not to be. I also have heard some people speculate that God made other people following the creation of Adam and Eve. I don't believe this idea contradicts any other Bible teaching.

[SR540Beaver]

Rooster,

 

I think we are pretty close to thinking the same way. I will say that some people view predestination and election as one and the same. Others do not. I knew of one couple who were pretty devout "fundamentalists" who prayed that God would give them children who were of the "elect". They only wanted children who would be heavenbound. What parents don't? But the idea was that regardless of how they raise the child and what they teach it, it was God who was going to make the decision whether the child could be saved or condemned.

[firstpusk]

"In fact, the Bible tells us, I believe it's in Proverbs, that God's ways are not our ways. We ought not think we can comprehend everything he does or why he does it."

 

Issaiah 55:8

[littlebillie]

firstpusk - could that be a typo? Maybe it's supposed to read "God's days are not our days..."?

 

ok, ok - it's a JOKE, folks!

[NJCubScouter]

OK, from the reading the posts I have finally figured out why I was so clueless when DeMann asked me if I was talking about "divine election." I had never heard of it before. I thought maybe it was an election in Florida where none of the voting machines broke down. But now understand, it's a New Testament thing. That's why I had never heard of it.