3 million children

[NJCubScouter]

Zorn says:

 

The fact is that some kids aren't worth the effort. Our society thinks that children are precious but they really aren't. There are children that cannot be saved and will never become a useful member of society.

 

I find that a very interesting attitude for a Scout leader to have. Do you put those ideas into practice in your troop? Are the parents of the boys in the troop aware of your attitude toward children?

[eisely]

Zorn,

 

Did you really mean that? Maybe you ought to rethink the point that you are trying to make.

[DeMann]

This statement seems, at least to me, to show that a study was done, and that either actual numbers of respondents or percentages thereof are available to support the statement that a 'large portion' of the membership of the United Methodist Church publicly disagree with the stance of the BSA. Where can I obtain a copy of this finding?

 

You can find that the UMC had different factions filing opposing briefs before the Supreme Court and that this church, which is the second largest sponsor of Scouting units, has internal division of the BSA's stance.

 

 

I am sorry. I must be dense. I asked where I could find a copy of some form of a survey or study that proved the statement that the majority of Methodists disagree with the BSA stance. Can I find that there are/were different factions filing briefs? I don't know that I can. But, I want to know where the proof is that the majority of Methodists disagree with the BSA policy.

Excuse me if I sound rude. I do admit to being dense and slow.

 

[Rooster7]

There are some that will not be saved, but none that can not be saved.

 

I have to disagree with this statement. While I would be extremely happy to see all children "saved" (i.e., saved from a bad family situation, saved from gangs or peers that would do them harm or corrupt their morals, saved from poverty, saved from their own troubled minds, saved from all the things that can make life difficult, etc.), the above statement is nave and the babble of Camelot liberals. Of course, when there is any sign of hope, we should strive to save every child. However, this statement infers that no child can be lost if the adults in his/her life to do the proper things. Hogwash. Children are capable of evil. Children often do choose the wrong road. Many, for reasons only known to them, refuse to leave that road. These choices are theirs. They are not the result of uncaring adults or organizations that failed to reach out. Its the result of their free will.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I am taken most back from Zorn's comment.

 

"Our society thinks that children are precious but they really aren't"

 

If children are not precious,what are they? Chattel to be bargained with? Insignificant sub-beings? They are human life, arent they?

 

and then the statement

 

"There are children that cannot be saved and will never become a useful member of society."

 

Who gets to decide who will and who will never become a useful member of society? At what point do we establish the "Aint worth a damn" commission who passes judgement on whether a child can be useful or not. Is Zorn qualified? Am I? Who gets to choose by whose parameters?

 

This just may be hallowen comming, but I am getting seriously creeped out here

 

[tjhammer]

DeMann -- no one has made the claim that the majority of the UMC opposes the BSA. I said that divisions of that church, the second largest sponsor of BSA units, strongly disagree on the matter. I believe you can find this outlined on their own web site, or at least you once could. This is an excerpt from a post I made a long time ago regarding this issue...I realize the division is not felt equally throughout Scouting - it is felt more in some areas than others. It is obvious to anyone, I believe, that there is no uniform view among religions on the morality of homosexuality.

 

Amicus briefs filed before the Supreme Court by Scouting's chartering religious denominations are revealing.

 

The National Catholic Committee on Scouting, the General Commission on United Methodist Men of the United Methodist Church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, and Agudath Israel of America, were among those who submitted or joined a brief in favor of the BSA policy.

 

Amicus briefs in opposition to the BSA policy were submitted or joined by the General Board of Church and Society of the United Methodist Church, The Episcopal Church, the United Church of Christ, The Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism and the Unitarian Universalist Association. One brief noted that even some individual churches within the Southern Baptist Convention have ordained gay clergy.

 

So really a larger issue that we now face is an inconsistency between this policy and our policy to teach a boy Duty to God. If a boy's religion happens to be one that does not believe homosexuality to be immoral, then we are REQUIRING him to choose between allegiance to the BSA policy and his Duty to God.

 

Nearly everyone who takes a strong position bases it upon their understanding of morality as defined by their religious convictions. All Scouters have religious convictions because all of us agree that the Duty to God is a pillar of what Scouting is about.

 

But in defining what we mean by "Duty to God," we have - after long and hard thought - said it is not narrow, it is not Baptist, Presbyterian, Mormon, Episcopalian, Catholic, or even Judeo-Christian. It encompasses many views of God, including the full range of Judeo-Christian beliefs, Eastern religions, and Islam, to name a few.

[evmori]

Children are our future. If that isn't precious, I don't know what is! And for a Scouter to say anything contrary is scary!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Rooster7]

but I am getting seriously creeped out here

 

I don't know Zorn well enough to defend him. I've only seen his postings. I do know how I feel, and I suspect he is of similar thought. Maybe not. Who really knows? Any way, I think your reading too much in his statements (perhaps mine as well). The point is (at least for me), some children get on the wrong road and never leave it. The inclination to do wrong is not taught. It's inborn. We all have to learn to control our thoughts and actions. Some of us do it just to conform. Some of us do it because we've learned that it is right. Some of us don't. Are we saying only adults are able to use reason and make moral decisions? Are we saying, no matter how a child acts, a "caring" adult will never give up on him? Are we saying the Columbine murderers (if not for their own suicide) were owed second chances? That's an extreme example, but it makes a point. While we'd all like to "save" every child, some children will not respond. This does not necessarily mean the adult or adults failed. It means the child did not respond. Life is about choices. Even children make them.

 

[Zorn Packte]

"Children are our future. If that isn't precious. . . "

 

Aren't you special? :-)

 

The children may be the future but that doesn't mean that they all can be saved and that saving them is a good thing. The world would be better off if certain children were drowned at birth.

 

Case in point: I know a family that has three children. Two girls and one boy. The older girl and the boy have grown up to be reasonably normal members of society with no more than your standard teenage quotient of trouble.

 

The other girl was nothing but trouble from day one. Disobedient. Defiant. Destructive. The family nearly went bankrupt paying for "counseling" for this girl. Before she graduated from high school she ran away from home twice. After graduation, she ran away again and got pregnant by her new boyfriend who was on his way to jail for attempting to kill a cop. Now she has a second illegimate child.

 

She's come home to live a few times and her parents always take her in but that has proved to be a disaster every time. Once, the cops had to be called because she was beating her father who has a heart condition. Mom's had a nervous breakdown because of this child. To make life more interesting, since this girl is never hooked up with a boyfriend with a job, the parents are living in near poverty to pay her rent so their grandchildren don't suffer.

 

The world would be better off if this girl had been deposited on a dung heap at birth.

 

 

 

[firstpusk]

"The world would be better off if certain children were drowned at birth." Zorn

 

So Rooster, you can call me naive and liberal anytime you want. You can keep defending Zorn, too. Seems to be the model scoutmaster. Let me guess...Safe Swim Defense?

[DeMann]

Zorn,

I once ate a t-bone that was tough as leather. but they all are not so. in fact, if that one had been handled correctly, it would have been well worth the eating. I personally think that all t-bones are great, and that they all have great potential.

it is not the fault of that girl because of her birth. she did make some poor decisions, but God still loves her. and, should she ask for him to change her, he is more than capable of doing so. I am taken aback by your stance. I have a feeling that you don't have that many boys trying to get into your troop. In fact, I bet you are quite happy with the same small bunch you have had for some time. I also think that you might be struggling with feelings of insecurity. something from your childhood. could it be that someone threw you into a cowpie while a small child?

 

I feel for you. You seem to be a most unhappy man. Remember this; God still loves you, and he wants to help you in this life as well. and as long as you (or that girl, or any boy for that matter) has a breath and life within, there is hope. "it is not the will of the Father that any should perish, but that all should come to salvation"

[DeMann]

'Amicus briefs in opposition to the BSA policy were submitted or joined by the General Board of Church and Society of the United Methodist Church, The Episcopal Church, the United Church of Christ, The Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism and the Unitarian Universalist Association. One brief noted that even some individual churches within the Southern Baptist Convention have ordained gay clergy.'

 

still no hard, factual survey of the people. no numbers. Interesting about the Southern Baptist Convention. the convention speaks for no individual church. and the group for whom you speak here, well, they are not very large. rather small, actually. Pretty DARN small. I still want to see where a survey was done that shows the Methodist Church has a large percentage that disagree with the BSA policy.

Am I out of line to ask for some kind of evidence?

 

ps. I will have to check out the United Church of Christ. I have a hard time believing this one as well.

[Zorn Packte]

it is not the fault of that girl because of her birth. she did make some poor decisions, but God still loves her. and, should she ask for him to change her, he is more than capable of doing so. I am taken aback by your stance. I have a feeling that you don't have that many boys trying to get into your troop

 

Give me a break. Why is it all of you Bible thumpers like to play psychoanalyst?

 

Face it, God doesn't change people, people change themselves. The girl was bad news from day one, nearly destroyed her family and you think that she deserves another chance. Maybe you think that Charles Manson deserves parole as well?

 

As for my troop, it is good sized and growing every year.

 

Maybe it was YOU who was thrown on the "cowpie" at birth.

[red feather]

Zorn, Charles Mansion???

 

Apples and oranges. No scout is not worthy of our efforts as scout leaders. If it is too much of an effort to go against the 'wishes' of those who do not understand what scouting is about, then bow out and blame other people.

 

Ther is a scout in my troop that parents said if he joins this troop we will leave, my response was and is go. Not saying all scouts are perfect citizens, we have had failures. We asa adult leaders of boy scouts must, I repeat must, give every young scout a chance.

 

Every success story can be countered by a failure. If your set is to find the neg. then power to you. I will continue to look for the pos. and hope for the best.

 

It is all we can do as Scouts.

 

cowpies

 

YIS

[OldGreyEagle]

Rooster, I want to be sure I understand you as I have misinterpreted you in the past, when you say

 

"Life is about choices. Even children make them."

 

What choices do you mean?

 

I have to admit when I first read that the inclination to do wrong was not taught but inborn, the first thing I thought of was how does that reconcile with free will. Then, you took care of that by saying we have an ability to learn/determine our own behavior, which I agree with. The issue is the duality of man, man can be very noble and then he can be exceedingly base, its our individual choice.

 

Perhaps also we should define what we mean by "children", a child of 11-12 is a lot different that one of 16-17 (actually at 16 I am not sure child is applicable)

 

I think the reactions of those who responded to Zorn's initial post was based on the flat global statement that children arent precious. To a group of people who voluntarily spend a lot of time with children, what type of response would you expect, if it was a visceral reaction it should be. This gets back to the "throw him out of the troop" argument that pops up from time to time. I think some scouters tend to give up much faster on a scout than they should. Just because a scout is a challenege to work with, or doesnt behave the way we want is not reason to say "well, heck, that one ain't worth the effort" Thats just my opinion

 

Now, when you take a much more dispassionate view, there are some who arguably could fit into the dunghill category:

 

The Shooters in Jonesboro, Ark

Kleibold and Harris at Columbine

The Shooter in Washingotn State

The Shooter in Paducah, Ky

The Nazi Parent killers of Salisbury Township, Pa

 

Thats just what I could think of right now. If this is the category you and Zorn mean, I have to say I agree. If it also includes a kid who cant stand still when the sign is up, or is disruptive during a meeting, (to a minor degree, not halting it) then no I dont. I would like to get your scope of who or what type of behavior qualifies for the dunghill.

 

(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)