3 million children

[scomman]

So...people who don't think as you do, support NAZI Germany. Is that your point? What exactly to do you think posters are saying?

 

I think you're going a little over the top.

 

Let the personal attacks begin because someone voiced a opinion that is contrary to somebody elses. When I took debate it was considered bad form to imediately attack someone like that. No I dont think that just because they don't agree with me that they are Nazis. It just when people call for the abortion and murder of people that fit a certain profile this is exactly the same logic that they used to justify the murder of 6 million people. They are not like us they are different they lok different these are the same arguments that the nazis leader used. To advocate the forced sterilization of couples that don't meet the standards set by someone else is the policy of the "Final Solution". I f this is what America is coming to then it is time for us to think on what it means to be a American.

 

I am a Native American and know what it is like to live in a society that was almost forcibly wiped out by another culture because it was different. My father is ashamed of his culture and tried for years to hide it because he was taught it was bad in school. To this day he cannot speak the language of his culture because it was not allowed to be spoken under penalty of law.(This message has been edited by scomman)

[Rooster7]

scomman,

 

I agree. Yet, I haven't read any postings in this thread that supports these things. But perhaps I missed something...

[DeMann]

ok, Zorn. You seemed to have missed my previous post. here it is again:

 

 

"Face it, God doesn't change people, people change themselves. The girl was bad news from day one, nearly destroyed her family and you think that she deserves another chance. Maybe you think that Charles Manson deserves parole as well? "

 

 

Now where did I give the impression that we are not to suffer consequences for our actions? Where in the Sam Hill did you draw that conclusion? Charles Manson needed help long before the murder spree. Heck, Scouting might have been the ticket for him for all you or I know. For you to say that some children should have been drowned at birth scares me. It also tells me that you do not value your own childhood. And, sorry to say, but I doubt that your troop is of any consequential size. I have run into a few guys over the years with similar cinical views, and they never get results that are bragged about by others. I am willing to bet that you are not a part of your District Committee, nor are you asked very often to put together district or council events. I bet your troop is an 'exclusive' group for those with no faults.

 

Pray tell, how are we supposed to tell the ones that need to be drowned? Or answer this: If God is so weak that he cannot change people, then what difference should he make to me or you? Why do I need him? Why should we even have any kind of religion or religeous principle? If he can't help change me, then what do I need him for?

 

by the way, the girl probably should have learned from her mistakes but according to what you said, was not allowed but enabled by her parents to continue her destructive behavior. she also does not sound like the Charles Manson type either. I could be wrong. if she had been allowed to suffer her consequences, she most likely would have changed. Yes, I believe that she still needs help, and that there is hope for her. I would hate to know that my momma would give up on me just because I screwed up a few times.

 

 

Could you answer a few of these for me? Especially about how you got Charles Manson into this!

 

 

 

 

[Zorn Packte]

ok, Zorn. You seemed to have missed my previous post. here it is again:

 

I answered your original comments. You must be insecure to feel that you need to post them again.

[red feather]

I just checked and this thread started on the thought about children from gay and lesbian families joining scouting.

 

Any boy showing interest in scouting is worth our effort! Their parents or guardians need to be informed of the stance of BSA. Beyond that the boy is of importance.

 

To support the exclusion of this boy based on the translation of the Bible, Mein Kampf, or the teachings of any philosophy is abhorrent. We are here for the boys, anything else is for campfire discussions.

 

I am not Bible literate, but have observed that any stance or philosphy will use it as a source to support either side of the discussion. A leader once told me that there is a phrase and I paraphrase 'suffer the children to come unto me', I know it is not the correct words but isn't that kinda what we are about? Working and volunteering to help the kids who need scoutng.

 

The easy ones are just that easy, the rest try our talent.

 

YIS

[SR540Beaver]

Rooster,

 

It is late and I'm tired...I'll try to make sense. Yes, I am a Christian. See the Origin of Man thread for a run down of my background. The problem with typing messages in threads is that there is no tone of inflection. It was something of an attempt at humor. You mentioned where Jesus says to shake the dust from your feet if your message is ignored and move on. I was just contrasting something else he said when he said to go out and COMPEL people towards God. I find the Bible as a whole very consistent. However, a verse taken out of context (not saying you or I did that) can be used to say or support anything you want. If you watch the political analysis shows on the cable news channels, you see the talking heads spin individual quotes of politicians everyday. You can do the same with the Bible or any other text for that matter.

 

Agreeing with or backing Zorn isn't my cup of tea. Personally, I don't see how you can be an effective scout leader and totally ignore the religious aspects of it because it does not suit you. That would be like telling scouts they don't need to be honest, that it is over rated. All of the aspects of scouting compliment each other. Without each one in place, it is like an 8 cylinder engine running on 7 cylinders.

[Zorn Packte]

I don't see how you can be an effective scout leader and totally ignore the religious aspects of it because it does not suit you.

 

Such typical arrogance. Who says that I'm not religious? Just because I don't subscribe to your silly notions of religion, basing my philosophy on the teachings of an executed criminal. A man who, if he came today, would be reviled and ridiculed by you and yours for daring to claim that is the son of the Creator.

[scomman]

Rooster7,

 

There were a few posts that seemed to be advocating that position in my opinion. I was just posting response to them. I think the reason most of us got involved in Scouting was that we thought we could make a difference in another persons life and still hold to it. The troop I work with comes from a neighborhood with a high number of single parent families and low income with a high amount of drug trafficking there in the past. We count as a success every boy that graduates from High School and goes on to college or career without using drugs. Hopefully, when the time comes for one of them to take over a troop they will look back at we did by sacrificng time and money to make sure they had the knowledge they needed. I don't think it to much to spend the time and effort to help anyone.

 

[littlebillie]

Ah ZeePers!

 

"Just because I don't subscribe to your silly notions of religion, basing my philosophy on the teachings of an executed criminal."

 

I will assume - since you've taken others to task for precision in expression ("Classic American attitude toward language but consider this, how do we know what your message is if we can't understand it?") - that you in fact intend us to understand that you indeed base your philosophy on the teachings of an executed criminal (that's what the sentence says, as it stands). Just as when you point out adamantly that we can't prove that you're not a white supremacist... it's what you said, so it must be what you meant?

 

May we inquire as to who your chosen spiritual criminal might be? I also note that there is a tone of religious supremacism in your postings - but gee, I don't expect you to cop to that either.

 

 

[Rooster7]

red feather

 

To support the exclusion of this boy based on the translation of the Bible, Mein Kampf, or the teachings of any philosophy is abhorrent. We are here for the boys, anything else is for campfire discussions.

 

Because I referenced the Bible to support my feelings on an issue, I have to believe that you were in some way referring to my post. If so, you've completely distorted my opinion. In fact, I don't think anyone has said a particular boy or group of boys should be prohibited from entering Scouts because they matched a certain profile. Although, I will defend BSA's right to set standards (i.e., belief in God, etc.).

 

I am not Bible literate, but have observed that any stance or philosphy will use it as a source to support either side of the discussion. A leader once told me that there is a phrase and I paraphrase 'suffer the children to come unto me', I know it is not the correct words but isn't that kinda what we are about? Working and volunteering to help the kids who need scoutng.

 

Agreed. However, my point was and still is, there comes a time when one needs to examine his efforts from a practical standpoint. Am I making a difference? If not, could I be making a difference elsewhere? No one is arguing (with the possible exception of ZornI'll let him talk for himself), that certain boys are not worth the effort. I am arguing that a boy can be unresponsive, and further efforts may well be a waste of time. It depends on the specific situation.

 

kwc57

 

It is late and I'm tired...I'll try to make sense. Yes, I am a Christian. See the Origin of Man thread for a run down of my background. The problem with typing messages in threads is that there is no tone of inflection. It was something of an attempt at humor.

 

Fair enough. Christians are often mocked for making references to their beliefs when defending a particular stance on an issue. I find it exceptionally frustrating when a self-professed Christian responds in the same manner. The implication is - even believers doubt God's Word and/or believe that His Word is open for anyone's interpretation. I accept your explanation that it was an attempt at humor. However, I feel it sends the wrong message to others (i.e., note Zorn's comments following your post).

 

You mentioned where Jesus says to shake the dust from your feet if your message is ignored and move on. I was just contrasting something else he said when he said to go out and COMPEL people towards God. I find the Bible as a whole very consistent. However, a verse taken out of context (not saying you or I did that) can be used to say or support anything you want. If you watch the political analysis shows on the cable news channels, you see the talking heads spin individual quotes of politicians everyday. You can do the same with the Bible or any other text for that matter.

 

I understand and agree. Nevertheless, in the future, if you think my Biblical reference is weak, please ask me to explain and/or to come up with more references to support my claim. I felt your response (which was to provide another verse without explanation) was flippant and did not counter my argument very well. If you truly believe that the God of the Bible wants us to never give up on any child, then I ask you to provide more references and an explanation of how those verses support your claim. And again (and hopefully for the last time)I NEVER stated or implied that we should not make an effort to help every childI ONLY said that there comes a point in time when it becomes painfully clear that the effort is not going to be fruitful and your time would be spent better elsewhere (on another child).

 

Agreeing with or backing Zorn isn't my cup of tea. Personally, I don't see how you can be an effective scout leader and totally ignore the religious aspects of it because it does not suit you. That would be like telling scouts they don't need to be honest, that it is over rated. All of the aspects of scouting compliment each other. Without each one in place, it is like an 8 cylinder engine running on 7 cylinders.

 

I'm not sure why this was addressed to me. With exception to the one point, I have found some of Zorn's statements as offensive as anyone else. In fact, the more he posts, the more I wish I had made my statements in another thread so I could completely disassociate myself with his postings.

 

 

Scommon,

 

There were a few posts that seemed to be advocating that position in my opinion. I was just posting response to them. I think the reason most of us got involved in Scouting was that we thought we could make a difference in another persons life and still hold to it.

 

Okay. I don't really think we're in disagreement. Please see my response to kwc57 in this same post.

 

 

Zorn,

 

Such typical arrogance. Who says that I'm not religious? Just because I don't subscribe to your silly notions of religion, basing my philosophy on the teachings of an executed criminal.

 

You may be religious, but you're certainly not trying to show God's love here. Even if Scouting didn't have a religious aspect to it, your comments do not reflect many of the other 11 points of the Scout law. In particular, I see no evidence of you being kind or courteous to anyone.

 

A man who, if he came today, would be reviled and ridiculed by you and yours for daring to claim that is the son of the Creator.

 

You're probably right. Of course, this fact would in no way change the outcome of His work. We would be just as forgiven. Christians do not claim to be without sinthey just claim to have a Savior.

 

By the way, since we have the Bible as God's inerrant Word, most Christians would refuse to accept such a man presenting himself as God. The Bible foretells of Christ's second coming, and it won't be merely as our Savior. He will be Judge as well. His status as God's son will be very self-evident.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[littlebillie]

you know, it's been my experience that folks who like to point out the "insecurities" of others during a debate, esp. publically, fall into one or both two categories: those who really have a lot of issues of their own, and/or those who have run out of anything meaningful or of substance to say.

 

there's a smaller third group as well - those who just plain like to "fight dirty" or "stir the pot" for no other reason than effect - but I usually treat these as a subset of the folks who no thing of value to contribute...

 

[red feather]

Rooster 7

 

No you where not the target. If so you would have been named. It was a general response. Reviewing the thread there has not been a specific attempt at exemption, just a general one.

 

On the 'humping incident' I am not and would not be of a mind to automatically expell this scout. If there is an opportuntiy to reach a scout that needs help, I will take it. If not then I will try to find help for the scout, not kick him out.

 

Not an attempt to be mundane:

 

Priorites: A hundred years from now it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove... but the world may be different because I was important in the life of a child.

 

Not mine, but it sums it all up as to why we volunteer.

 

YIS

[Zorn Packte]

Oh littlebillie, you seem to have nothing to do with your time if you spend it looking for what I've said.

 

I can see that what I wrote might be misconstrued. Let me put it more clearly, I don't base my personal philosophy on the supposed teachings of a convicted and executed criminal.

[red feather]

Zorn

 

Personal foul, 15 yds, and loss of down.

An attempt to verify input into a forum is appropriate.

 

Your personal philosphy is yours, and yours alone.

 

A scout is reverant. A scout is reverant towards God. He is faithful in his religous duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

 

To quote:

 

" The audience was swell. They were so polite, they covered their mouths when they yawned."

Bob Hope

 

YIS

[Zorn Packte]

Personal foul, 15 yds, and loss of down.

An attempt to verify input into a forum is appropriate.

 

It may be appropriate but that doesn't mean the person doing the verification doesn't have too much time on his/her hands.

 

As long as bible thumpers thump their bibles in my direction, I will point out the silliness of their system.

 

BTW, I've been wondering if "red feather" is an homage to Long Tr'ang, Carlos Hathcock.