switched troops

[maddoro]

firstpusk,

My son received all the other things back, advancemnts, blue cards, from the advancement chair person. ll that is takencare of. I know the SM still has those letters beause he told me. e is not trained. He is a former Eagle scout.

Yarworski,

My son is not a football captain or in drama club. It is just that he has to be there at every practice to even play a game. He also has to be a confirmation to be confirmed. I know he has to be there at scouts to earn his Eagle. There was just no way to be at 3 places at the same time. So we found a troop which is more understanding about time committment nd counts church activities as part of scouts. I believe my son should have the right and opportunity to switch troops even if he is so close to his eagle or especially because he is so close to his eagle. As you see the SM is not a very fit person and the Eagle mentor was never at the meeting. My son could be done with his project if the troop would have been more helpful. There was just no support fo Life scouts. I have a younger son in the troop who did not have that kind of problem and advancment worked very smooth.

The SM should just send the paperwork where it belongs and send me the satement of my son's account. I don't understand why he wants to hold on to it. Just to be difficult.

I have contacted every importan person in the troop to help out and the committee chair person nor advancement chair contacted me back. So, I don't know what is going on. I will have my son call council to see if all his other paperork is there and then have him find out about those letters and go from there.

[SR540Beaver]

yaworski,

 

After reading through a number of threads in various forums, I have come to a conclusion. You are a very critical person who rarely has anything positive to say. This is a scouting forum, quit picking nits with everyone please. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

 

My son played competitvie baseball for 4 years from age 5 through age 8. His teams started practicing in February for the season opener in late April. The season ended very late in June. They got about two weeks off in July before they would begin practice for the Fall season that would begin in late August. It would run thru late October of early Novemeber. He played on a team at the age of 7 that played 76 league and tournament games, went undefeated for all 76 and won the state championship. Their coach had the same attitude you did about making choices. You didn't show for a practice (3 to 4 a week) and you didn't play. He expected total commitment. Parents were scared to death of scheduling a vacation except for the 2 week lag in July for fear that their son would get blackballed. For crying out loud, they were 7 year olds who wanted to ride their bikes, swim and play with their friends.

 

My son (now 9)went on his first Cub Scout campout this weekend and we took our first vacation out of state this summer. He asked when we did both why we had never done this before. I explained it was because we had ate, slept and lived baseball for the last 4 years. He missed out on a lot of other good experiences because of hard choices and commitments.

 

I used to tell him that he didn't have to play ball if he didn't want to......but he would always have to finish a season if he had committed to play. I take committment seriously to and agree that you have to make choices. You can't do it ALL.

 

That being said, no youth organization should put such high expectations on a kid that he can't have a well rounded group of activities to participate in.

 

My son just became active in Scouts and he has been taking Tae Kwon Do for the past year. He is talking about wanting to play basketball this winter. I've explained to him that he has Tae Kwon Do twice a week and Cubs once a week and that only leaves two nights a week for anything else. He would have to find a team that practices on those nights. His games would be on the weekend when he might have campouts. I'm steering him away from basketball, even though he loves to play and I enjoy him playing. But it is a sport and not church.

 

One should never have to make a choice between church and scouts! Ever! Any SM who thinks otherwise needs to find something else to do.

 

[maddoro]

Thanks so much for input, kwc57. That is how I think also.

[YoungBlood]

"That being said, no youth organization should put such high expectations on a kid that he can't have a well rounded group of activities to participate in."

 

I couldn't disagree more! First of all, I think overcommitment is major problem with youths these days. Too many boys including myself will try to stretch themselves too thin. If you can't commit a good amount of time to a program then you shouldn't be in the program! Remember Eagle Scout is an award and honor that one should earn through actively particapating in the program. Now, I am not saying that you should never be allowed to miss meetings. I just believe that some sort of guideline should be established by the troops and that guideline should hold boys to a pretty active level.

[SR540Beaver]

YoungBlood,

 

You miss my point. Committment is a good think and something every kid needs to learn. Expecting 7 year old kids to practice 1 1/2 to 2 hours, 3 to 4 times a week, play in a league and play tournaments every weekend is a bit much. They played 76 games that season. That is half the schedule that the Major League plays. If they had a birthday party to go to, too bad. If the family wanted to go on vacation, too bad. The boys were expected not to go swimming on game days so they would have plenty of energy. They played 4 games back to back in one tournament when the tempature was 103. I think anyone would agree that the above true scenario is just a bit excessive. But it was what the requirements were and what the coach expected. If you didn't like it, well the dugout door is over there.

 

I agree, anything your kid gets involved in should teach them commitment and they should not over extend themselves. But when a coach or SM expects total commitment to the exclusion of any other activities, that is over the line. There have probably been 20 kids that have been part of this baseball team over the last 5 years. Many got tired and found a less agressive team or the kid just totally burned out like my son and won't even consider playing ball anymore. He used to love it and couldn't get enough. Now he won't even think about it. It is sad to see an adults expectations drive a kid away from something.

 

No one should be allowed to breeze thru scouts attending only one or two meetings a year and one or two campouts. But they should not fel like they can't take part in church activites because the SM will be vindictive either.

[slontwovvy]

kwc57-

 

I think it was you who missed Youngblood's point.

 

 

He was not wanting total commitment to the exclusion of other activities, just saying that participation in Boy Scout activities should be at a certain level in order to consider oneself an active Boy Scout. If other activities get in the way on a more than consistent basis, that should not be considered active. The expectation to advance rank is based upon active service and leadership.Why do people feel they have a right to advance even if they've only been to one or two meetings and an outing in 9 or 10 months?

 

Youngblood did not say nor imply that other activities should be excluded. He said, however, something eminently sensible--that boys who expect to advance should be reasonably active in Boy Scouting.

[firstpusk]

slontwovvy,

 

I go back to my example of our eagle who also was captain of the football team. If I used the 50/75 % guideline used by that troop, we wouldn't even talk with him. As it was, I had a guy I could point to when younger scouts said they didn't have time for scouting. He would sit down and talk with them about the things you get from scouting that are not in athletics.

 

If attendance is considered a problem, it is time for the SM to have a conference with the scout. They should come to a mutual agreement on the level of participation. This is what happened in the case of our football captain. He came to us during his junior year. He told us that he missed scouts and wanted to participate. He agreed to attend a number of outings and meetings as practices would allow.

 

His family had a number of eagles and they were telling him he had made a mistake by not following through. We agreed and came up with the plan. We were flexible, but he did not ask for many changes along the way. We got a leader that inspired many of the scouts that we have at life now. They are sophomores and juniors many of whom are also in high school athletics.

 

I think standards and guidelines for attendance are fine. But I think it is more important that the scoutmasters of a troop respond to these guidelines and are involved in seeking why a kid is not attending. If he has come to the decision scouting isn't for him, go forth with our blessing. But try to find out if changes in the troop's program would make a difference. It is easy to come up with a number, it is harder but much more rewarding to understand where a boy is coming from.

[fboisseau]

My scout is on the local premier soccer team for his age group. This means 2 practices on weeknight and games on the weekend. My feeling on this issue is that as Scouting should not interfere with what a Scout wants to do. A scout will get out of scouting what they put into and as long as their lack of attendance/participation does not affect other scouts scouting experience, I am fine with that.

[SR540Beaver]

fboisseau,

 

Yeah, but.......commitment is commitment. As I said earlier, my son takes Tae Kwon Do twice a week on Monday and Wednesday. He has Den/Pack meetings on Thursday. We got into Cubs a few weeks ago after first checking to see when the meetings were held. He is talking about playing basketball. I've told him it all depends on what nights the practices are held. Would your soccer coach be satisfied if your son let the team down by not showing up for practice or games because he was at a Den meeting or a campout? If he is like my son's baseball coaches, the answer is NO! Scouts is not a sport, but it is a team oriented activity and signing up for it and not supporting it is just as bad as letting your soccer team down. I once knew a lady who had her son in soccer and baseball at the same time. She said that when they conflicted, they would just sit down and decide which game was more important to participate in. I'm sure the soccer and baseball coach just LOVED this family. Bottom line was that neither team could count on him as a player and the whole team suffered. It is disheartening for a Scout to come to one metting and there are 12 boys, next meeting there are 4, next meeting there are 8, next meeting there are 2. The den and packs will fall apart this way because it is not taken seriously and seen as a casual activity. There is no continuity. I'm teaching my son to prioritize his activities and to be committed to the one's he chooses. You can't have it all and getting it in bits and pieces is fruitless.

 

[WA_Scoutmaster]

Thanks, kwc57, and I couldn't agree more. Our younger boys show when they are interested in showing (which, I'm happy to say, is quite often). We require attendance of the leadership, though. How can you lead if you don't show? Granted, grandma comes to visit, scouts get sick, and other common-sense exceptions rise up. I can't in good conscience, though, grant credit of office to a patrol leader that shows up for 20% of the campouts and attends two PLCs in six months. It's time to teach boys how to set priorities. I had to teach my own son that, despite his enthusiasm, he couldn't do it all.

[fboisseau]

kwc57

I do not disagree with you. I believe commitment is very important, it is just that I believe you can make choices to your level of commitment. In my sons example his commitment to the soccer team is more important then Scouts, because if his patrol knows that he will not be there they can plan accordingly and no harm no foul, but not being there for the team, means they might lose. This also means that I would advise him not to take on a position of responsibility (POR) in the troop that would conflict with soccer (such as patrol leader), because he would not be able to guarantee that he could provide the level of commitment that is needed. My view is not that a kid should blow their commitments off, it is just that when it comes to his current commitments, his commitment to his team is more important, because they rely on him more then the troop does. And this holds for all the scouts in a troop unless they are in a POR.

[maddoro]

To come back to my original thread:

I contacted the advancement chair from the old troop and he advised me to contact councilabout the eagle letters. I sent the SM an email explaining the situation again and told him I would have to involve council. After a few days we received 3 from the two letters with a message the other ones were lost. I also received a very nasty email from the SM about I was threatening him with council, I should rethink my bad reaction, he even threatend to talk bad about my son to council. That reaction really scared me. The next day I received an email from the commitee chair with an appology that the letters were lost and he would write a letter of appology for my son to resend for new letters of recommendation. We never received that promised letter.

I am so disappointed in scouts. I have not even told my son about this situation becauser I want him to keep the scout spirit since this should not be typical scout behavior. Also we have never received our last finacial statements from the troop for over paid dues etc. I just hopethat this is not typical for a troop or SM reacton. I am very disappointed.

[frankj]

Maddoro: why not forget about the money -- I know there is a principle involved, but it doesn't sound like you are dealing with honorable people. As far as the missing letters, why don't you just ask the original letter writers to write new ones? They would probably do it if you explain the situation. This doesn't seem that tough a problem to solve.

[maddoro]

I am already forgetting about the money. That one persopn who my son asked for the letter sent the letter already 4 times. First to the old SM's old adress. Then to the new adress. Then to the new SM's old adress and then to his new address. People switched and moved without upating the troop directory. My son could ask her again and say what? I need the letter for the fifth time?

My point really is that this whole scout behavior does not reflect scouting to me. These people should not be running a troop and if I give in they will think they are a great troop and get away with this unhonorable behavior.

[firstpusk]

maddoro,

 

As a scoutmaster, I know how important these letters are. I understand that it is embarassing to ask the person for another letter. It is not you or your son's fault. Why not ask the scoutmaster at the new troop to handle the duty. If he is willing, he could put in a personal call explaining the situation. I know that I once had to ask a person to send a second letter. I am still mystified by what happened to it. I was embarrassed and profusely apologetic. The person was quite gracious and I am sure thought I was off my rocker (necessary qualification for a scoutmaster).

 

The council is aware of the situation. The DC should know about him, too. Any scouter that would threaten to bad mouth a boy because of his poor performance is someone we could use to replace.