Kentucky autistic boy booted from Troop

[sctmom]

I am putting this post under Issue & Politics because I'm afraid some people will start a serious discussion about this. The main reason for my post is I would like to contact the mother of this child to offer my support (if nothing but a shoulder to lean on).

 

The article is here

http://enquirer.com/editions/2002/09/05/loc_scouts_ouster_has.html

 

Is this the same article I read about a couple of weeks ago under the Scouter Headlines? Or are there 2 cases? I thought the first one was in North Carolina or South Carolina. I may be wrong about that.

 

My son is not autistic but sometimes I wonder if he may be. My child has not been discriminated against, but suffers some of the same problem.

 

If Ms. Hanley is reading this, please contact me via the option to the right on the scouter forum.

 

[evmori]

I read this, too. It seems that something happened on the camping trip that triggered the Scout's actions mentioned in the article. The reason I say this is from what his mother says about him in the article. While there is a valid reason to toss him out of the Troop (in the version I read from a Kentucky paper http://www.sentinelnews.com/sentinelnews/myarticles.asp?H=1&S=507&P=392212&PubID=7346

said he was fighting) I don't necessarly think he needs to be kicked out of the Troop. There is a follw-up article stating that the council will be training leaders on dealing with special needs kids.

 

Like I said, something else happened. Did the Scout have his ADD medicine with him and was he taking it? Did the mom inform the Troop her son was ADD? If so, did she send his medication with him?

 

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

 

[sctmom]

According to what I read, the scoutmaster was frustrated with the boy soiling himself several times during the week because he either didn't know about the latrines or was uncomfortable using them. The scoutmaster says that the mother did not inform the leaders of her son's "likely abnormal behaviors".

 

The article I read a week or so ago said that the mother offered to go to summer camp with them and the boy's cubmaster offered to go because he has worked with the boy a lot.

 

Have there been other problems? Is this being used as an excuse? The mother was told to go to the community troop for special needs kids even though he is mostly mainstream classes at school. Did the scoutmaster try "hey mom, you have to go with him from now on"?

 

Can a scoutmaster say "we do not accept special needs kids"?

 

What would you do as an adult leader?

 

[sctmom]

Okay, Here is the first article

 

http://www.sentinelnews.com/sentinelnews/myarticles.asp?H=1&S=507&P=391940&PubID=7341

 

A few bits of the article:

 

Randy Ordway, a friend of the family who had been Jerry's scoutmaster in Cub Scouts, came to the meeting after Hanley had left and was told by Green that Jerry was too much to handle and that scoutmasters could not spend all of their time with one boy. Green said if Jerry were allowed in the troop, he would quit as scoutmaster, Ordway said.

 

Hanley said the situation was Jerry's soiling himself four times at camp and getting into a fight with another Scout who was teasing him. She said that because of Jerry's autism he is afraid to go into places that are different or unfamiliar.

"I think the latrines just smelled really bad and he didn't want to go in and nobody told him he should use them," she said. "If they had told him to go on in there he would have been fine."

 

Hanley said the situation was Jerry's soiling himself four times at camp and getting into a fight with another Scout who was teasing him. She said that because of Jerry's autism he is afraid to go into places that are different or unfamiliar.

"I think the latrines just smelled really bad and he didn't want to go in and nobody told him he should use them," she said. "If they had told him to go on in there he would have been fine."

 

Troop 164 Assistant Scoutmaster Jack Shea said he hopes Green changes his mind about admitting Jerry to the troop.

"I've worked with Jerry for six years and he is very functional. As long as Robin is willing to provide supervision, he should be able to be a member," Shea said.

 

[yaworski]

Amaazingly, I'm not an expert in the subject of autistic chilred (or in PC speak Children with Autisim) but I have my opinions.

 

It doesn't strike me that being mostly mainstreamed in classes is the same as being mainstreamed in a Scouting environment. Is it fair to ask the Scoutmaster take on the burden of worrying about a "special needs child"?

 

Did the mother make a real offer to go or was it, "Fine, I'll go if you can't handle it!"

 

What is the troop policy on parents going to camp? Did the scoutmaster want to not set a bad precedent? After all, is not the goal of mainstreaming to treat the special child like all the other children? So, by extension, if Jerry gets to take his mom, all the other boys do too.

 

Too many problems here and none that I'd paid enough to deal with.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Sounds like the ball was dropped a few times on both sides. The mother could have been more forthcomming with information about her son's condition and the troop could be a little more flexible. Rather than saying "you go away", they could have said, "look, for everyone's best interest, we need to talk about how to keep Jerry in scouts". Then after working on alternatives with the the family, things will work out or not. Having the scoutmaster say its either him or me is grandstanding beyond the realm of a scouter. The scout shouldn't be punished because of inaction by his mother and overreaction by the troop.

 

This does bring up how often in the forum it seems like we want to boot kids out of a troop. I remember a story about a shepard who had 100 sheep. One day as he was counting them, he realized he was missing one. After locking up the 99, he went off and searched for the lost one. Finally he found it, and although he had to risk his life to rescue it, he brought the sheep back with him and asked his friends to rejoice that the lost had been found.

 

Maybe as scouters we should spend more time finding lost sheep.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[red feather]

Lost sheep children sfter seem to be the ones who benfit more from scouting than 'normal' kids. Granted the 'normal' kids gain in experience and confidence that may allow them to increase their potential in life. However, those scouts who are challenged (PC) benefit as much or more at their level as do the other scouts

 

When I was on older scout in my Troop years ago I had the opportunity to go camping with a troop that was entirely of both mentally and physically diabled scouts. These scouts did not want our help unless they were completely frustrated of unable to perform the tasks (usually after an extended amount of time). One scout in particualar sticks in my mind-- his job was to unroll his sleeping bag and organize his gear in his tent. Four hours later the look of accomplishment on his face when he finished his job was and is they look that I look for still in the faces of scouts that I work with today, rarely seen. Well adjusted scouts are easy to work with, it is the others that adult acouts should bend their special attention and efforts to. If needed get specialized help if available and keep these boys in a program that gives them things that none other does.

 

YIS

[Twocubdad]

I agree with everything that's been said about this situation so far. There needs to be a place in Scouting for this boy.

 

But put yourself in the Scoutmaster's uniform for a mintute. Shouldn't he have the opportunity to say "Sorry folks, this just isn't what I signed up for." Not everyone has the patience, the aptitude or the interest to deal with this child. (Frankly, you could say the same thing about teaching middle school math.) I don't think it's a character flaw for this guy to admit it.

 

In a perfect world, the Troop would welcome this boy with open arms. He would never get teased, and the leaders would all have the patience and training to incorporate him into the Troop seamlessly.

 

So what happens in a less that perfect world? You get vilified in the press for "booting" this poor kid? Asked to resign as Scoutmaster? Labeled as a badguy? What about the other boys who have now had their Troop trashed?

 

[ScoutParent]

Several options were offered to this family such as place him in a special needs troop or start a new troop. Why would anyone want their child with special needs to be in a troop with a SM who didn't feel he could handle it? Sounds like putting the child in a situation where he will not be comfortable, welcome or happy.

[sctmom]

Yaworski writes:

"It doesn't strike me that being mostly mainstreamed in classes is the same as being mainstreamed in a Scouting environment. "

 

I have to laugh at that because the school said the exact opposite to me just a few weeks ago "well that was summer camp, that doesn't mean he will do well in a regular classroom."

 

This article strikes very close to home with me. My son has a problem soiling himself. If anyone from our troop is reading this, it is the first they have heard of it. No, I didn't tell them before summer camp. I debated on it and decided that I felt he could handle and perhaps he SHOULD handle it on his own. Apparently no one found out. Why does he do it? Heck if I know, nor do any of the numerous specilists know. Has he been teased? Yep, many times. It is not a physical problem. He doesn't want to take the time to go to the bathroom and eventually nature takes it course.

 

Am I trained at dealing with it? NO! Is this what I signed up for when I became a parent? NO!

 

Was this boy scout in Kentucky able to clean himself? I think that is an important question. I can understand not taking on the extreme autistic child I know of that smears her feces on the wall. But how much training does it take to look at the child and say "go get clean clothes and take care of this". And to tell the other boys to leave him alone.

 

Maybe the boy hasn't had this problem in a long time and the mother saw no need in telling the other adults. Let me tell you what happens when you tell people your child has this problem -- first the "looks" at you and your child, the whispering behind your backs, the questions of "geez, why doesn't he just GO?", why don't you try THIS, etc. Then every time someone passes gas, my son gets in trouble and has to go change his clothes (this has happened at school before).

 

Trust me, we have considered EVERY possible reason why he does this. We have tried every possible way of getting it under control. Since first grade he has seen 3 medical doctors, 3 pyscharists, and 2 counselors, plus lots of people at school. I've been blamed by school officials and even my own family that it is somehow MY fault or that he chooses to do this. It isn't for attention. When he has an incident, he becomes very angry at himself and then takes it out on others, becoming very hostile and unbearable.

 

Instead of kicking the boy out and threatening to quit, could the scoutmaster have said "he is not allowed on any more trips unless a BSA trained, approved adult is with him. Here is the BSA training schedule. Who do you have in mind to do this?" Or "what do you want us to do when this happens? What can we do to help?"

 

There are possibly as much as 5% of the population who has a soiling problem. There are also many kids with bedwetting problems. Going to put them all in special needs troops?

 

Yes, the mother was offered other alternatives but the boy's friends are in THIS troop. Perhaps she also doesn't want to be scoutmaster and she wants him to be in a "regular" troop. My son's "regular" troop is full of kids who have their own personal problems. Many from divorced families, some have had immediate family members die, many ADHD, some with medical problems, some with behavioral problems, some who cry at night on campouts.

 

Why didn't the scoutmaster tell the mom when he talked to her from camp that there was a problem?

 

It also sounds like the scoutmaster made this decision by himself to remove this boy for the problem(s) at summer camp. I would hope most people would talk to a few other adults in the troop before making such a move. I am also upset about the way the mother and boy were told -- apparently at the beginning of a troop meeting.

 

[evmori]

I stated this before. Something happened on this camping trip that we don't know about.

 

Mom says her son loved Cubs & excelled. Mom also states her son is completely mainstreamed and is an honor student.

 

I think what possibly happened is this Scout became homesick. Remember, he just crossed over in May and this could be the 1st time he has ever been away from mom and dad (if there is a dad). And soiling himself could be his way of showing his homesickness. He also got into a fight because he was teased. Probably about his soiling. So one thing led to another and now the boy is not allowed back in the Troop.

 

This kid needs Scouts. The council offered to put him in a Troop with other disabled Scouts but mom said no because this is where his friends are. Hmm.

 

I can understand the frustration of the Scoutmaster. And his was well within his right to expel the boy from his Troop because of the fighting incident. If this Scout was in my Troop, I would have probably suspended him. If not, I would have a very long discussion with the mother, my CC, my COR & Unit Commissioner to hack out what all this boys problems are & what needs to be done to handle them. It is very possible the Troop he is (was) in is not equipped to handles them & there is nothing wrong with that.

 

It might also be that Boy Scouts is not for this boy.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[OldGreyEagle]

Without any communication between the family and troop, and no attempt to try any remedial course of action, I dont see how scouting is not for this boy.

 

I dont see how the scoutmaster could say in effect, " I didnt sign up for this". What did he sign up for? A troop with nothing but 2 parent families living in single families dwellings? Does he get to throw out the ADD, Dyslexic kids as well?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[yaworski]

"I have to laugh at that because the school said the exact opposite to me . . ."

 

Remember, educators are experts at saying what they need to say to make everything your fault. Elsewhere, I reported my experiences with my son's school and their insistence that they medicate him.

 

Not only are they two faced but they lie with both of them. Can you tell that I don't like the school system very much.

 

BTW, this in in middle school, my son is sitting in the traditional rows rather than the desk clusters that they used at the elementary school and his is doing 100% better. For five years, my wife told them that he'd do better if separated from other kids so he couldn't socialize.

 

Back to the show. To play Devil's advocate here we really have no idea what happened. All we've heard is one side of the story from a very biased person.

 

We have no idea if the Committee discussed this issue, all we know is that the Scoutmaster delivered the news.

 

We can be pretty sure that the paper will spin everything they can to make the Scoutmaster look evil in this situation.

 

[Mike Long]

Say, did anyone notice that Greg Shields the BSA national spokesman stated that the Scoutmaster has the final say on who can be a member of a unit?

 

Member removal has been discussed ad nauseum here and elsewhere and the answer that is always presented to me is that it is up to the COR and Chartering Org. as final authority on membership in a unit.

 

I'm guessing it was a gaff but it illustrates the disparate levels of knowledge about the program among members and paid staff.

 

[yaworski]

"Say, did anyone notice that Greg Shields the BSA national spokesman stated that the Scoutmaster has the final say on who can be a member of a unit?"

 

Actually, the newspaper reported something. We have no way of actually knowing what Shields said.

 

For all we know, he said, "it requires action by the troop committee and the Charter organization to remove a boy from a unit." They reporter went into tiny brained tilt mode and translated that to "Scoutmaster."

 

I've been interviewed for the paper many times and I was even on CNN once. It amazed me at how well they could change what I had said.