bullying incident

[Double Eagle]

Bob, To clarify on the overseas scouting. Not every unit is under a military base. Some are embassy scouts or with the American schools for American agencies. Not Department of Defense Dependents School (DODDS). The reason I bring this up is that you spoke about violating state laws. Not to get in a fight, but I bring this up so that other posters who travel to other countries to scout, Canada, Mexico, Europe, Korea and even the world jamboree, realize they may have to contend with this type of incident.

 

During the posts, I bring up the question of the authorities so that others reading these can get the info. maai is looking for advice and although letting everyone know is supposed to happen, the fallout after everyone takes action has to be discussed also.

 

What about fixing the problem, the scout needs counseling at a minimum.

 

[Bob White]

Counseling won't help if you don't stop the abuse. Regardless of where you are, you have a scouting executive, and you are required to report any supected child abuse or sexual misconduct.

 

Bob White

[Double Eagle]

Bob, I mentioned earlier about letting the CE know. Got that. Maybe I'm a little thick headed but how do you stop the abuse without incarceration, removal from the home, or counseling. Isn't the bottom line that we want the behavior stopped. How it is done is not really important but putting measures in place that will stop it. This is probably linked with the other post about the excessive disciplining dad.

 

Picture this, we have the toadkiller (no abuse?) to the extreme dad (possible abuse). Isn't it up to whoever is in the area to "suspect" child abuse? Either of these parents may see it different. With anyone able to cry abuse, its how we handle these situations is my concern. If I was on the side of the extreme dad, I may say that the lack of instilling discipline in the toadkiller is abuse. McMon may think that ANY corrective behavior the extreme dad does is abuse. I'm amazed why there are still leaders that will put thereselves in an atmosphere where ANY disgruntled leader (and we've seen loads in the forum) can cry abuse for spite.

 

I have faith in the process of investigating such cases but the turmoil that one experiences in unfounded cases is incredible. What I am saying is that before alerting the entire community, look at the cause and affect. If a tongue lashing by another concerned parent can stop it, why not proceed that way. Please don't write the required part again, I got that. I just see things being more productive if handled at the lowest possible level. There's always time for taking it higher, if and when the corrective actions fail, you now have even more material why it should be taken higher.

 

 

[evmori]

Let's onsider red feather's post. WHat if one Scout called another a Ni****. Is that the same as what started this thread? Wouldn't that be ethnic intimidation? (not listed as a reportable offense)

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

Double eagle,

Projecting what the effect on ociety will be by reporting is not your responsibility and certainaly is not within the knowledge sphere of the tens of thousands of adult volunteers in our program. Your responsibility begins and ends with the welfare of the individual child who you suspect is being abused.

 

Ed. You answered your own question. Since verbal harrassment is not a reportable offense if sexual misconduct is not involved you are not required to report it.

 

You are however required to deal with it as verbal haarassment, an activity prohibited by the scouting program. You are required to protect the scouts from this behavior. You cannot ignore it. the G2SS gives procedures that you are expected to follow. Inaction will likely lead to further prohibited behaviour could result in physical violence among the scouts and your expulsion from the program for not following Youth Protection policies.

 

Bob White

 

[evmori]

Bob,

But what really is the difference!!! Ethnic intimidation is just as bad and in some cases worse than sexual conduct. Neither has a place in Scouting or anywhere else in the world/

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

The difference is exactly what you said it is. BOTH need be be dealt with according to the policies of scouting. ONE is controlled by state law and you and your local council office must abide by the procedures established by your State government.

 

It is not scouting that says you have to report suspicion of abuse it is your state law.

 

If you want to report a scout using a racial slur go ahead. But you had better do something about it within the unit according to the scouting policies as well.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

Thought we were talking about sexual misconduct not abuse. These aren't necessarly the same.

 

Ethnic Intimidation in some states is also illegal but the BSA doesn't require it to be reported?

 

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[red feather]

Help!!! Call Big Brother!!! (current gov't) Zero tolerance is the buzz word of tody. How many of us old fa-- wuld have had trouble in our youth if not for the common sense intervention of an adult that knew us? This is not a trip wire situation unless there is a history of this type of activity. Counseling yes, formal or informal, is indicated but is not the responsibility of every adult leader to hold scouts to an expectation of behavior that conforms to the norms of society? Automatically reporting a incident is part of the BSA guidelines, but, every situation calls for mature review of the case and appropriate action taken at that time. Once again this is not a trip wire case. On a side note we had the n----- situation, not reported,called in or escalated, handled at troop level and one scout is an Eagle and the other is earning his. Not that he is a perfect kid, but, without scouting who knows where he would be now.

 

YIS

[Venturer2002]

My take on what happened:

 

This certainly seems like a bullying incident to me.

 

Assuming all teenage boys operate similarly to those at my school, they're using an implication of homosexuality against someone else in an attempt to degrade them.

 

Verbal, and yes, physical misconduct are present in this type of bullying. I've seen some guys do this to others in gym class, and it's usually accepted by their peers because it portrays homosexuals in a negative light.

 

Getting law enforcement involved isn't necessary, all you'd need to do is explain to the bully that people might think he's gay based on his actions, which usually works when I see this being done to the younger kids at school.

 

It's understandable for the younger scout to be shook up after this type of bullying, but to call it a sexual encounter is absurd. While sexual molestation can occur between people of similar age groups, it's just not what happened here. (At least as far as I can objectively decide given the statement)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob White]

Venturuer2002,

This is a good training moment for a scouter of your age.

1) If you agree it is bullying what would you have done?

2) Forget sexual molestation, reread the content of the first post and tell me if you think there was misconduct and if that misconduct had a sexual content.

3) Reread the portion of the Guide to safe Scouting, and describe the actions required for bullying and for sexual misconduct.

 

Bob White

[Rooster7]

I know some folks hate hypothetical scenarios (i.e., "what if'"), but I believe they serve a useful purpose. Hypothetical scenarios can provide evidence as to the validity of one's logic. If the logic is true for one case of "sexual misconduct", then to remain consistent, it should be true for others. Having said this, I'd like to present some hypothetical scenarios -

 

What if, two Scouts share a dirty story or a dirty joke? What if, they're in their tent when this exchange occurs? What if they're fully dressed? What if they happen to be in their underwear?

 

What if, upon hearing the joke or story, the second Scout asks the first to tell another one? What if the first Scout (the story teller) is five years older than the second? What if they are the same age?

 

What if the joke is akin to those shared by two 10-year-olds on the playground vice two dirty old men? What if the joke is really a story about a homosexual encounter?

 

I realize, depending on the answers to these questions, any number of scenarios are possible. Some are much more serious in nature than others. However, by strict interpretation, all of these scenarios have a sexual element. Here's my point. There needs to be a little room here for discernment. If I overhear two 10-year-olds sharing a joke about a rather robust woman, I'm not going to treat it the same as I would if I heard a 17-year-old telling an 11-year-old a story about a fictitious homosexual encounter. Do both situations have a sexual element? Yes, they absolutely do. Are both situations plausible? I believe they are. In fact, I'm sure dirty jokes occur a lot more often then we care to think about (and some are probably a lot cruder than others). Nevertheless, can we put all of the above scenarios in the same pot? Because the stories or jokes can be construde as sexual, do we report it to "the authorities"? No. I don't think we always should. We need to recognize some differences. BSA has an excellent program. I'm sure safety for the boys is a top concern. Yet, I think BSA's number one concern is liability. While I too am concerned about liability (and the safety of the boys), I refuse to be an unthinking cog that mindlessly follows narrow interpretations of policy just to avoid the possibility of litigation.

 

For a real world encounter, I offer the following. On a BSA campout, I over heard an 11-year-old (who was a friend of the family) tell a very crude joke to my son (who was also 11). I advised the boy that I knew his family very well. I further explained that I knew how upset his father would be if he ever discovered that his son was telling dirty jokes. In short, I warned him that if I ever caught wind of this kind of behavior again, I would promptly inform his dad. To my knowledge, it never happened again. He is now 16 and an Eagle Scout.

 

As for maai's situation, I believe there are some unknowns that need to be examined before we can advise him with absolute confidence. For example, how old was the offending Scout? Was he 12, 17, or somewhere in between? What is the age difference between the two boys? Does anyone else but me see a significant difference in scenarios depending on the answer to these questions? As Ed Mori pointed out, did the younger boy do anything to provoke the older boy? What was the attitude of both boys during the incident? I don't feel it is safe to make assumptions. We ought not conclude that maai has provided every pertinent piece of information. While the boy admits to certain behaviors, if I was one of the adults investigating this incident, I would want to know more. Depending on the answers, I could envision both ends of the spectrum. That is to say, I could see the answers leading to this boy's expulsion from BSA. On the other hand, I could see it leading a stern lecture and a short suspension. Just to paint two different pictures using the same facts:

 

Scenario 1:

 

The older boy is 12. The younger boy is 11. The two boys have a history of confrontations and the 12-year-old is not the only guilty party. Perhaps the 12-year-old was a recent victim of a "practical joke" played by the 11-year-old. Due to a situation at home, maybe the 12-year-old is not aware of that such behavior is considered completely unacceptable. Of course, the likelihood of all these things being true is remote. Nevertheless, before one should cast judgment, these things need to be examined.

 

Scenario 2:

 

The older boy is 16. The younger boy is 13. The older boy has a history of picking on younger boys. There's good reason to believe that he was fully aware of his behavior's inappropriateness.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[sctmom]

Rooster, You have some good points. I think we do need to think about the different hypothetical situations.

 

In MAII's first posting, it is noted that the older scout is about 1 or 2 years older than the new scout. So, sounds like 11 years old and 13 years old. I think the older scout crossed way over the line of bullying. Would it have been different if he had said "I'm going to kick your ****, you little ******......"?

 

I think either situation requires some serious discipline (suspension) not just "don't do that again". Sounds like he knew he could get away with it. In a later post we are told that he has a history of being a bully. With that information, there is even more reason for him to have been removed from camp immediately. He KNEW what he was doing was inapproriate.

 

My son this summer learned a new phrase that he had no idea what it meant. It is a very impolite way to say "go jump" but sounds very innocent if you don't know what other meanings the words have. When he first said it to me, I lost my breath. Once I recovered I explained quickly that he is to NEVER say that. He was completely clueless. He didn't say "oh, I was just messing with your mind." There is a big area between the two. Every situation will be at a different point on that range.

 

[ScoutParent]

From the Guide to Safe Scouting:

 

"The unit should inform the Scout executive about all incidents that result in a physical injury or involve allegations of sexual misconduct by a youth member with another youth member."

 

It is clear by this that the BSA recognizes the difference between a case of sexual misconduct by an adult against a youth member and two boys of the same approximate age acting inappropriately. Since it has been alleged that sexual misconduct occurred, it is your responsibility to report it to the scout executive. It is likely that no actual crime was committed but if it is actions that make a scout uncomfortable then action should be taken to alleviate this type of behavior in the future.

 

 

Should he be thrown out of scouting? What is his record in the troop? Has he engaged in inappropriate behaviors before this? Did he understand that he had made a mistake and how has he acted since this incident? Generally when young children of either gender act this way it has more to do with them being victimized at some time than it does with them showing signs of being a predator themselves. Has anyone spoken to the parents and recommended counseling to see if that possibility exists?

 

[Venturer2002]

Bob White,

 

I personally wouldn't consider this a case of sexual misconduct. It doesn't appear to me that the sexual overtones were the whole thrust of the encouter, it seems more likely to be a revolitingly ugly bullying tactic.

 

The behavior certainly isn't normal, and I didn't mean to make it sound that way. What I too often see is a truly good kid get wrounged, or a bad kid becoming worse thanks to our juvenile court system.

 

What would the benefits be of reporting to the police? We must think of why we have the scouting program in the first place. Baden Powell didn't think of scouting as a place atheists couldn't be in; in fact he saw it as a place they could find God. I feel an attitude more like "Let's help everyone in this situation" would be better than "Lock him up!"

 

Oh, and after re-reading the guide to safe scouting under sexual misconduct, it was clear that this was reserved for sexual acts between members. Bullying does not equal sexual misconduct in this given situation, and is a disservice to all in my opinion to consider it such.

 

Bullying has no place in scouting, explain to the parents the situation and maybe even propose an essay on "how my behavior did not fall within scouting ideals". This would be an introspective process, and would help this boy's recovery. As Scoutparent said referral to a clergy member, psychiatrist, etc. would be beneficial.

 

He needs help, not instruction on how to be a better criminal

 

(This message has been edited by Venturer2002)