bullying incident

[yaworski]

Alas, Bob White proves that a book spouting Scouter is not always brave enough to stand behind his words. Sad, truly sad. I hope that your brothers, the cops, are braver than you are.

 

 

 

 

[evmori]

Misconduct -

Wrong conduct; bad behavior;mismanagement

 

Nothing about illegal. Wrong & illegaal are not synonyms.

 

And we still don't know if the younger scout did anything to provoke the situation. And remember, when the older Scout took the chair, the younger Scout didn't care.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[OldGreyEagle]

Ed,

 

I understand the younger scout didnt say anything when the older scout took the younger scouts chair, should he have said " you know thats my chair and I do want it back"? Should he have to? Would the older scout have acted any different? The fact he took it doesn't bother me, the fact he didnt give it back does.

 

And you have asked a few times if the younger boy did anything to provoke the incident. I guess he did, perhaps he should not have shared his chair with the other boy. I am not sure what you mean, do you think the younger boy wanted to be bullied?

 

While I dont think the boy should be thrown out of scouts, the incident needs to be reported. If the Council investigation comes up with nothing, then its on the record as nothing. Right now, there is no offical record. This may seem trivial but this is similar to an event that happened in my troop a few years back.

 

While on a winter cabin campout, a new Assistant Scoutmaster walks in to room where some of the older boys are passing around a Penthouse magazine. The boys quickly try to shove it out of sight, but the ASM calls them on it and identifies it and says put this away and I'd better not see it again this weekend. By the next campout the word on the new ASM was that he enjoys porn and had huge collection in his basement. By not reporting it to the scoutmaster, or at the very least not confiscating it and returning it to the scouts parents, he implied it was ok as long as the scouts didnt get caught.

 

He tried to be a "nice guy" and the kids trashed his reputation because they knew whay they were doing was wrong. I would rather have council say there is nothing here, than have a spectre lingering over my head.

 

 

[Double Eagle]

OGE, Your porn magazine incident is not that unrealistic. Having scouts that legally drove to troop meetings in town, Many of these older scouts were fully responsible for their actions. How we (as leaders) deal with their "trying to be grown up" ways is what says the most about the leaders and the program. You will never get cussing, smoking straw, name calling, or physical contact (reference "Ages and Stages")out of the scouts.

 

You mention an opportunity to trash a leader's reputation. I think confiscating the book and if the scout wants it back, the scout with parent can have it back. Many older scouts cannot be bullied by adults, yes it happens, to act right. Many outweigh and overtower their leaders. Treating them like young men is what builds the mutual respect for them to grow. If they want to attack your character, let them, your actions and behavior prior to any of their rumors will speak for you.

 

Some posters would like to kick out the scout that did the humping. In your scenario some of the posters would kick out the scout with the book, notify the police and probably persue an investigation on how the scout got the book and prosecute the seller/distributor whether it was stolen from an older brother or relative. I don't think that is how we as "leaders" are showing compassion, caring, judgement, and fixing the problem.

 

Bob White, you misquoted yaworski when he asked SagerScout (sarcastically)how long he had been a boy not a boy scout.

 

Posters please remember that not all scouts/scouters were/are perfect, some of us had out wings clipped, needingly so, before being able to soar with eagles. It only made us more appreciative of great leaders versus good leaders.

[Bob White]

Double Eagle,

 

You assume that Sager is male. I made no such assumption. The implication was that unless you were a boy at some point in your life you cannot understand the "boys will be boys" code of conduct. I don't think a responsible adult has to have been a boy to understand boys or to know how to read and follow the policies and regulations governing behavior in the BSA.

 

The policies of the BSA clearly state that the whether you classify the offenders behavior as bullying, sexual harrassment or hazing, it is prohibited in the activities of the BSA. here is what the Guide to Safe Scouting says you MUST DO.

 

Adult leaders of Scouting units are responsible for monitoring the behavior of youth members and interceding when necessary. Parents of youth members who misbehave should be informed and asked for assistance in dealing with it.

 

The BSA does not permit the use of corporal punishment by unit leaders when disciplining youth members.

 

The unit committee should review repetitive or serious incidents of misbehavior in consultation with the parents of the child to determine a course of corrective action including possible revocation of the youth's membership in the unit.

 

If problem behavior persists, units may revoke a Scout's membership in that unit. When a unit revokes a Scout's membership, it should promptly notify the council of the action.

 

The unit should inform the Scout executive about all incidents that result in a physical injury or involve allegations of sexual misconduct by a youth member with another youth member.

 

Failure to follow bold print policies in the BSA risks the safety of the scouts, exposes adult leaders to loss of liability insurance normally provided by the BSA, and opens the adult leader to civil and criminal prosecution related to their actions.

 

Ed says that this wasn't sexual harrassment. Well the rules don't refer to sexual harrassment. It says sexual misconduct. This scout's actions were obviously sexual misconduct.

 

I am not suggesting you should inform the authoriites. The BSA and state laws require that you inform the authorities. The leaders of that troop can now be criminally charged with contributing to the abuse of a child for failing to report the incident.

 

By not reporting the incident to the Troop Committee, the scout's parents, and the local Scout Executive, the leaders have exposed themselves to civil prosecution from the offended scout and removal from the BSA.

 

Bob White

 

 

[evmori]

OGE,

The reason I keep asking if the younger Scout did anything to provoke the actions by the older Scout is it might have happened. Did the younger Scout say anything to the older Scout before trying to get his chair back? Did he ask by saying "Hey fa***t, give me my chair". We don't know. I still don't condone the older Scouts behavior.

 

I have another question. If the younger Scout was so upset by this incident, why did he wait until later that night to talk to the aduls about it?

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

[Bob White]

Ed,

There are a number of reasons why children do not report abuse immediately or at all. Some examples are written in the G2SS.

 

The amount of time to report whether immediately, or months later, does not lessen the seriousness of the offense. You close you eyes to the violation assuming that the victim "asked for it". The action of the older scout was not defensive in nature. His behaviour was wrong and possibly criminal.

 

The leaders had a responsibility to take direct action through scouting and legal avenues and they did NOTHING. Their response, more like their lack of response, was as irresponsible as the offending scout's actions.

 

Bob White

[OldGreyEagle]

Good points Ed, I hadnt thought of that possibility. Whatever the younger scout had said, it didnt mean the older scout was right in denying access to the chair, but perhaps the reponse form the older scout was brought about by something the younger one said.

 

The reasons the younger one could have waited until later to tell the adults range from the youunger scout being so terrified from the experience, that it took till then to calm down enough to talk about it. Another possibility is that it didnt effect him at all, and after dinner he was talking to his friends about it and perhaps one or more "put him up to it", telling the adults about the incident to get the older one in trouble. That the incident didnt mean anything to anybody. Could have been a "you didnt give me my chair back and I an gonna tell Mr Scoutmaster"

 

All the more reason to report it to council, have an independent investigation and matter aired and cleared. Then 2 years from now, when a prospective scout's parent asks "I heard a scout from your troop tried to rape another scout on a campout", you have an independent report documenting what happened. The key is the sexual comments, whether actually intended or not. I think a sex abuse investigator would have no problem investigating a claim where no abuse is found, why not have an official record ?

 

Personally I didnt report the sex abuse I received by the parish priest at age 12 until I was 35. Reasons vary.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Dont worry Bob White, I am honored you trusted me with it and I would not break that confidence for any amount of money.

 

Before we "out" ourselves, I suggest we all go back and read the Internet Stalking thread in the general program section.

 

Besides,

I may be wrong, but I hear tell that not everyone is who they claim to be on the internet. Not all the self-proclaimed scouters may actually be scouters, anyone can post here. I mean I have heard about informative issue oriented boards almost being destroyed by someone who posts trash, insults other posters and otherwise takes the focus off the topics at hands.

 

There may be people gathering information from our posts, number of children, ages, activities, location etc. who never post here.

 

Obviously everyone here is free to behave as they will, but first read the internet stalking story and then think about revealing personal information. I dont see black helicoptors but I do see Internet pervs.

[yaworski]

"I dont see black helicoptors but I do see Internet pervs."

 

You shouldn't call them "pervs," they are misguided souls who don't understand the social dynamic. I'm really shocked that you'd use such a denigrating term.

 

[red feather]

WOW!! What a topic. Call the National Guard, mobilize federal forces, the thought police, NAACP. etc, etc, etc. Common sense please, common sense. Is the scout is question all that bad? Long history or abuse/bullying? Or is scouting what he really needs-- adult role models? Or is he not suited for other human association. Let's take it in a slightly different direction---- calling a fellow scout a N---- is that grounds for dismissal or an opportunity for the adult leadership to step up and start a learing process to eliminate improper behavior? Used to calling a kid 'yellow' was grounds for a free for all. When I was military calling someone a 'straight leg' was good for some sort of confrontation. From one of the two things that fell from the sky. ( and used to be a long haired hippy)

[Double Eagle]

Bob, you got me on that Sager was not a male. I guess I didn't catch the connection. Call me naive.

 

A couple of issues: The reference that it must be reported to the authorities is ok. Who are the "authorities" and who decides these "authorities"? Are the authorities clergy, police, council executive, counselors, CO, COR, Troop committee, or who?

 

Symantics about "sexual harassment" and "sexual misconduct". A big margin for interpretation there.

 

Liability on the leaders? When this is over and done, the younger scout will regret ever telling the troop leaders. I envision a smear campaign on the troop. It will tear the troop apart. There won't be any volunteers, scouts won't want to join and the older scout will not have his problem fixed. Is this your advise to the maai?

 

State laws differ, heck I don't even scout in a state. But, local country laws do. They have similiar laws that can be violated. You mentioned that the leaders did nothing, not true. Verbal counseling by the leaders did happen. I would hate to go alert the council for every mishandled situation. What if you received a traffic ticket while on a scouting trip. Should we kick you out of the troop? Shouldn't we fix the problem, with the older scout, and not be so quick to put a band-aid on the troop by kicking him out. Chances are that the younger scout wouldn't want him kicked out and neither does this older scout. If the younger scout thought the older would retaliate in camp, imagine what would happen out of camp for an over reacting committee. Let the leaders on the scene handle it and not second guess them, support them and their decision. Follow up with the committee, parents, and let the CE know how you handled it. I think the leaders made a call for the betterment of the scouts and troop. Its easy to armchair quarterback without being in the middle of this (myself included)).

 

red feather, I'm still one of those things from the sky.

[Bob White]

Double Eagle

If you have taken Youth Protection Training then you have been told who the local authorities are. The fact the you scout overseas has no bearing on the topic. You are no doubt providing scouting through a military base, you have a scout executive assigned to your region that you must report sexual miscinduct to. He or she will direct you to the proper authority on your base.

 

We need to stop reminiscing with "when we were kids we used to do this"or "we used to say that". The fact is some of the things we did were wrong and are now prohibited in scouting and illegal in most states. Ignoring them simply perptuates the crime and dameges scouting for other members.

 

No Double Eagle, my advice to maai, is to follow the regulations inorder to protect the other scouts, the families of the leaders and make the offending scout get the meassage that his actions are unacceptable to scouting and the community at large. This boy is not a scout, he is a thug hiding in a scout uniform.

 

Bob White

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[yaworski]

"This boy is not a scout, he is a thug hiding in a scout uniform."

 

I was going to respond but you're not worth the time.

[NJCubScouter]

Bob says:

 

"This boy is not a scout, he is a thug hiding in a scout uniform."

 

To which Yaworski says:

 

I was going to respond but you're not worth the time.

 

To which I say: No response is necessary. If the kid did what the original poster said he did, he is a thug. Maybe some long for the good old days, like when I was a Scout, and bullying and hazing were laughed off by the adult leaders. I don't.

(This message has been edited by NJCubScouter)