How we as humans came to be

[le Voyageur]

The worm that flaws the apple of creationalism is simply the fact that the OT creation story was borrowed by the Hebrews from the Assyrians. Generations of storytelling before pen and paper would alter the tale, reformulating the story with a distinctive Hebrew outlook. Additionally, overlooked is the evolution of the Bible itself. With the books of Adam, and Enoch ommited, the genesis story becomes greatly distored, loosing it's richness.

However, the real reason that creationlism is being push is to undermind the consitution, and implant a pro conservative Christian agenda without due reguard for the belief systems of other. The foundation of this drive is the Great Commission found in the NT. Needless to say, the Great Commission is both folly and arrogance, and is the theological hammer of narrow minded power mongers.....being able to leave others alone to follow their own path is beyound the comprehension of the majority of Christians. And so these tyrants meddle, burning the world around theirselves, and wondering why everything is going to hell....

[Rooster7]

The foundation of this drive is the Great Commission found in the NT. Needless to say, the Great Commission is both folly and arrogance, and is the theological hammer of narrow minded power mongers.....being able to leave others alone to follow their own path is beyound the comprehension of the majority of Christians. And so these tyrants meddle, burning the world around theirselves, and wondering why everything is going to hell....

 

You know, before I read this drivel, I thought you expressed yourself rather intelligently. However, this kind of non-sense portrays you as rather ignorant and hateful. The Great Commission is not an edict to force religion down anyone's throat. It's a command to Christians to spread the Word. No one is required to listen, much less believe it. If you prefer a nation that forces people to keep their opinions to themselves, there are plenty of alternatives all over the world. Follow your own path. By the way - Does hearing about someone else's path affect your ability to walk your own?

 

[le Voyageur]

Rooster

 

Thanks for your post...just know that I was seeing that this thread, which "had" a lot of great issues that could of been discussed was headed south. All, I'm doing is putting my C.O.P.E. directors hat on and pushing buttons. I figure if I can get you guys to vent a bit against a common enemy (me) you'll circle the wagons to protect one another. Afterwards we can get back to discussing the merits still outstanding once the vinegar is spent. So all, give it your best shot, and enjoy a bit of bashing...afterwards we'll take a deep breath, and get back to being nice to one another...en roulant *

[le Voyageur]

Rooster, sorry for the short post, had an emergency to attend to...so, let me ask you a few questions...

 

lets say that I was a young Life Scout about a month away from my Eagle board of review, and I said what I mentioned in the post while sitting around the troop's campfire just sharing thoughts....

 

how would you respond? With anger, or wisdom???

 

Could you turn this into a teachable moment, and if so, how would you? If not, why not?

 

Would you deny me my Eagle because I expressed a thought that "you" didn't like????

[ScoutParent]

l.v.: your posts certainly don't seem consistent with these goals

 

 

"Seven major goals are commonly associated with Project COPE activities:

 

Leadership development

Problem solving

Communication

Self-esteem

Trust

Decision making

Teamwork"

 

 

 

[ScoutParent]

l.v. states on page 4:

 

"As a paradox, the concept requires that Christianity be an absolute truth. And as such, all other religions, and creation storys as an absolute false. Thus, Judism, the foundation of Christianity would be false, and if Judism is a false religion, then Christianity falls like a house of cards."

 

 

lv: Might I suggest you take a comparative religion course and a logic one as well.

[ScoutParent]

First Pusk wrote:

"Evolution works on populations. Those individuals within a population that are better adapted survive and breed those that aren't, don't. Any change in a poplation over time constitutes evolution. Given the right conditions, populations that are isolated for long enough could become a new species."

 

Now let's assume the words that meet with your approval are better adapted rather than superior, how does that apply to humans and the theory of evolution?

 

After FirstPusk explains that we are all brothers and one race he states:

 

"Morphological characteristics of one race or another may help them be better adapted to the specific environment in which they live."

 

FirstPusk, I ask you again what traits play a role in the "natural selection" process for humans? How do IQ's play into the evolutionary equation? How about hair color? Are you part African? Are all of us? Is ADHD a desirable or undesirable gene? Are athletes "better adapted" Which of these traits display "survival of the fittest"?

 

 

 

 

[le Voyageur]

Scout Parent

 

Yes, I've takened quite a few courses in comparative religions...do you perchance know what a paradox is????

 

 

[littlebillie]

"...better adapted rather than superior, how does that apply to humans and the theory of evolution?"

 

it means that all else equal, an Australian Aborigine it BETTER ADAPTED to the outback than I am. And so superior to me in this regard.

 

Conversely, I am probably better adapted to life in the city, by virtue of having lived in one all my life and being used to its practices and pitfalls.

 

Now, in the span of a single life, the Aborigine is probably going to adapt better to life in the city, than I am to being barefoot in a loincloth and hunting with a boomerang in the outback. So once again, I gotta guess the Aborigine's my superior...

 

 

 

[Rooster7]

Christians who understand their faith would never claim Judaism to be a false religion. They would argue that the Jews failed to recognize the Messiah. This fact does not nullify the stories and teachings of the Old Testament or the New Testament. There is no paradox. Both testaments are true. In fact, Jews who come to realize that Christ is the Messiah do not call themselves Christians. They call themselves Messianic Jews.

[le Voyageur]

Scout Parent was right about the methods of C.O.P.E. However, he missed one very important element. That is getting an individual, or a group to start thinking outside of the box to see, and to consider a different way, or a different ideal. There are times as a C.O.P.E. director that I have to say something off the wall, or twist an ideal in it's opposite direction to get a person to do a bit of rethinking. In Zen, this awakening within the individual is called a satorie and is one heck of a magic moment. However, C.O.P.E. is also challenge by choice; if you don't wanna play, you're free to go.

 

Rooster, you said that my post was hateful and ignorant. Sorry for setting you up (believe me, I am), but those comments made in my post were "borrowed" from scouts. My question..."How would you feel if you were a sixteen year old scout openly expressing yourself for the first time on an issue that was very important to you, only to be dressed downed by a Scoutmaster in front of your peers?" You see, you did to me on this forum, but since I baited the trap I've no problem with the rebuke. I knew that someone would bite.

 

Why the trap, well when Scout Parent started banging away with arguments based on eugenics, I know that it will only be a matter of time before we're headed down that ugly dark alley of racism.

This thread would soon end, and some very important issues will be short changed. Instead of sharing our insights, we'll soon start flinging insults.

So lets talk about the real issue which isn't about creationalism, or evolution, that issue being simply what will happen when we take off constitutional safeguards, and either do away with, or weaken the concept of separation of church and state. Lets have a focused intelligent discussions where we put away our egos to take part in a discourse that will allow us to make informed decisions when it comes time to elect our next set of leaders. You never know, those leaders could be those young men sitting around your campfire...it's your choice, wanna play?

[NJCubScouter]

As I have mentioned, I have no time to deal with the many comments in this thread (or the other thread that started out with the Pledge of Allegiance and has now branched off into about 5 separate topics.) But I have to deal with this statement by Rooster:

 

In fact, Jews who come to realize that Christ is the Messiah do not call themselves Christians. They call themselves Messianic Jews.

 

I'm not sure if this is based on any statistics or anything Rooster, and I don't have any either, but experience tells me that the majority of Jews who develop a belief in the divinity of Christ, in fact do call themselves "Christians", just like you do. (I will leave aside your phrase "come to realize", which I don't use for the same reason that you do use it.) Well, those who become Catholic probably call themselves that as well, but you know what I mean.

 

Most Jews also call such former Jews "Christians," and regard such terms as "Messianic Jews" and "Jews for Jesus" to be misleading (and in some cases intentionally deceptive, particularly in case of "Jews for Jesus," based not only on their name but on their specific literature, which was often handed to me when I attended a state university that was probably 20 percent Jewish.) Many also suspect that some of these groups are basically fronts for evangelical Christian groups, and I believe there is some evidence for that, though I haven't studied it personally.

 

I'm not trying to get into an argument about this, nor am I defending it based on my own beliefs, which admittedly are rather, um, casual. I'm mainly giving a perspective that most people might not be aware of. The Jewish position is that if you are a Christian, regardless of the fact that you may be "culturally Jewish" or "ethnically Jewish" (and may correctly call yourself either of these things), you are not "Jewish." You have expressly renounced the faith.

 

 

[ScoutParent]

L.V. writes:

 

"Why the trap, well when Scout Parent started banging away with arguments based on eugenics, I know that it will only be a matter of time before we're headed down that ugly dark alley of racism."

 

What a gross misrepresentation of the facts. The whole basis for evolution is for some traits to be more desirable than others. If it makes you uncomfortable to think about that idea in human terms then maybe you should give serious consideration to the theory of evolution. You are clearly out of bounds making such illfounded remarks about me.

[littlebillie]

that the "basis for evolution is for some traits to be more desirable than others" is a misstatement. it is that some traits are more successful under certain conditions. black skin typically gets less skin cancer than white skin with a lot of moles, under the tropical sun.

 

So I guess for Scout Parent, that makes being black more desirable, whereas for a true scientist, it just makes it a successful adaptation to that environment.

[firstpusk]

"What a gross misrepresentation of the facts. The whole basis for evolution is for some traits to be more desirable than others. If it makes you uncomfortable to think about that idea in human terms then maybe you should give serious consideration to the theory of evolution. You are clearly out of bounds making such illfounded remarks about me."

 

You clearly don't understand evolution or how it works. Both Merlyn and I posted several resources that you could use to correct the problem. Mine were internet links. I think it would be helpful.

 

I am sorry you are offended by the implication of LV's remarks. However, what you said is considered quite offensive by many folks. I was quite direct because I also assumed that was where you were going. Evolution has been misrepresented by many in order to justify some pretty scary ideas. Stephen J. Gould dedicated a whole book to the subject, "The Mismeasure of Man". I will repeat my position again and I think littlebillie and LV are with me here - we are all brothers and we must work together regardless of our differences to make the world a better place.