How we as humans came to be

[littlebillie]

"However evolutionists (who understand what they are supporting) don't believe it is a conscious choice it is preprogrammed in the genes, period."

 

 

NO, no, no, no, no. First, evolution does not preclude free will, evolution has nothing to do with free will or predestination. The theory of evolution, and its sidemen, simply describe one wonderful tool that God has used to creat the rich diversity of species past and present that we see around us today and in the fossil record. it only describes a process - or processes - that have nothing to do with one race of man being superior or inferior. nothing to do with that kind of qualitative analysis.

 

"Better adapted to a particular environment" does not equate to "racial superiority". that is not a term a true, impartial evolutionary scientist would use.

 

If there is "evil" in evolutionary theory, it is in the misapplication thereof - but that wrong does NOT invalidate the theory itself.

 

The Bible is very clear in the Old Testament laws regarding diet - but those who choose to eat trayf point to various parts of the New Testament and say "well, you can INTERPRET this to allow pork chops in oyster sauce". Doesn't mean it really IS true, but what are you gonna do. As far as for avoiding women during their cycle, when they are "unclean" - I know of NO justification, Biblically, for changing the interpretation. Yet we do.

 

Does that mean it is right, from a Biblical perspective?

 

Evolution is a simple statement of process - it that process is misused, it is wrong-minded humans at fault, and not this amazing tile in the mosaic of life.

 

 

"God made man - but He used a monkey to do it."

-Devo

[DeMann]

My!

Such a lovely discussion! While I have not read every posting, I have read enough to wish I had been in on this one from the start. Who believes that evolution is a fact? Who discounts 7-day creation of the universe? I would love to know which denomination suports this one.

Science? What is it and where did it come from? What constitutes a fact? Gee.....this could get interesting, provided of course that this thread has not died. I find the creation/evolutionist quite difficult to take. two seemingly distant and diverse ideas announcing that they can exist in harmony.....

[denver4und@aol.com]

WOW. Boy did I stumble into something really bizarre.

 

Hey guys, we're supposed to be scouting. Not calling names. I am shocked at "scouters" (lower case intentional) who are so narrow minded, hidebound, and generally prejudiced that they would write things like:

 

"Evolutionary theory deals with creation outside of the scope of God, based on that alone it is an engine of evil. I wasn't clear on your meaning about you preaching sunday, please clarify."

 

She's not the only one. Lots of posters here have betrayed a real inability to appreciate anyone else's point of view.

 

Here I sit, preparing to go to a Troop meeting in an hour. I am SM, and I'll have boys there tonight from at least 6 Christian denominations from Roman CAtholic to Southern Baptist, I'll have several Jews, One Sikh, a couple of Muslims (originating from different continents), etc. So I'm going to have a SM minute on diversity and tolerance, and try to show why the US is different from the places that send people to murder thousands of innocents by crashing airplanes into office buildings.

 

Here's my material:

 

I urge several of you to review the Scout Handbook. Try page 50, where we learn the meaning of the Scout Law Friendly: "A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He offers his friendship to people of all races and nations, and respects them even if their beliefs and customs are different from his own."

 

For that matter, try page 54, in the explanation of Scout Law Reverent: "A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others....Throughout your life you will encounter people expressing their reverence in many different ways. The Constitution of the United States guarantees each of us the freedom to believe and worship as we wish without government interference. It is your duty to respect and defend others' rights to their religious beliefs even when they differ from you own."

 

So,I'm off to a meeting. Try to have a little tolerance for one another's views.

 

And while I'll defend the lady to the death for her right to argue that "evolution is the engine of evil", I, in turn, can ask: "lady, for crying out loud, are you listening to yourself?" Don't label other peoples legitimate beliefs about their religion as "evil". You're not in charge. Heck, even Christians don't agree on a single doctrine, and we've had 2000 years to work on it! As for me, my God is amazing enough, powerful enough, and way smarter than me. So I believe that he probably used evolution as part of His plan the same way that he uses lots of other stuff, including sending his Son to change the way things were done for several thousand years prior to His arrival.

 

Many of us can't believe in literal interpretation, because then we'd have to listen to Saint Paul, who instructed women to be quiet in church and learn from their husbands, and when they had questions, ask them in private at home. (1 Timothy 2:11-12). AFter all, my wife would kill me..... We'd also have to tell the Pope he has it wrong about celibacy. (Bishops are to have only one wife, 1 Timothy 3:2).

 

But then I don't have to believe in literal interpretation to be a Scout. In fact, Scouting doesn't care what I believe in, just so I believe in something.

 

BE NICE!!!!

 

YIS, Jim

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by denver4und@aol.com)

[red feather]

ditto

 

YIS

[ScoutParent]

Tolerance: "The endurance of the presence or actions of objectionable persons, or of the expression of offensive opinions; toleration."

 

 

Obviously you hold a different understanding of the meaning of the word tolerance than I do. Does it mean that I would harm another with different view points? No. Does it mean that I would interfere with how a family raises it's children? No. Does it mean that I have a right to my belief in God as creator and Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior? Yes. Does it mean I have a right to voice that? Yes.

 

As a Christian, I can not say my God because to me there is only ONE GOD and I can not say that he sent his son to change things several thousand years later because I know that JESUS was with God in the beginning and I believe in the Holy Trinity. I can say, in good conscience that Evolution is an engine of evil because I see that God tells us anything taking the glory for his creations is evil. I see that God tells us that he made it, how he made it and when he made it.

[NJCubScouter]

ScoutParent says:

 

I can say, in good conscience that Evolution is an engine of evil because I see that God tells us anything taking the glory for his creations is evil.

 

Let's see if we can take this idea a few steps down the road and, at the same time, try to relate this thread back to what this forum is supposed to be about. Scouting, remember?

 

So ScoutParent, let me ask you this: If evolution is "an engine of evil," is a person who believes that evolution takes place, an evil person?

 

And if a person who believes that evolution take place is an evil person, should Scouting permit that person to be a leader?

 

And on a slightly different note, please answer me this. If a person professes a belief in God, or what they call God, but also believes that the Bible is of entirely human origin, and that it is, in whole or in part, allegorical and/or fictitious, should that person be permitted to be a Scout leader?

[ScoutParent]

NJ Writes:

 

"So ScoutParent, let me ask you this: If evolution is "an engine of evil," is a person who believes that evolution takes place, an evil person?"

 

 

No, not really. More a person that has lost his way.

 

NJ then writes:

 

"And on a slightly different note, please answer me this. If a person professes a belief in God, or what they call God, but also believes that the Bible is of entirely human origin, and that it is, in whole or in part, allegorical and/or fictitious, should that person be permitted to be a Scout leader?"

 

As you have repeatedly stated, BSA is nonsectarian.

 

 

[tjhammer]

ScoutParent says: Does it mean that I would harm another with different view points? No. Does it mean that I would interfere with how a family raises it's children? No.As NjCubScouter has observed... let's try to relate this back to Scouting. ScoutParent, your zeal is respectable, but you hardly mask your contempt for anyone that fails to share your point of view. Because you believe that all homosexuals are immoral, and because you believe that people who accept evolution to be both true and consistent with God have simply "lost their way"... are we really to expect that you would not interfere with how a family raises it's children? Scouting, and Scout leaders, are often tools used by families in the rearing of their kids.

 

In your role as a Scout leader, can we really expect someone with your demonstrable zeal to refrain from "saving" the children in your care who are "lost" because they believe in evolution? How about if a 16 year old Scout in your troop reveals that he is gay? Would you feel compelled to "interfere with how that family is raising it's children"?

 

Better still... as a role model/Scout leader, could you even refrain from making your rather strong opinions on these subjects known to the kids?(This message has been edited by tjhammer)

[ScoutParent]

TJ writes:

 

"In your role as a Scout leader, can we really expect someone with your demonstrable zeal to refrain from "saving" the children in your care who are "lost" because they believe in evolution? How about if a 16 year old Scout in your troop reveals that he is gay? Would you feel compelled to "interfere with how that family is raising it's children"?"

 

Lots of questions in there, TJ. okay as a scout leader I could refrain from discussing particular religious ideas. Just as I must when leading a group through a program our town government supports or as I must in the secular school system. If a 16 year old Scout revealed he was gay, I would refer him to his parents and their clergy. I would also take the appropriate steps mandated by BSA. I didn't realize that families are raising their children to be gay. That is sad to me.

 

 

Now could I ask the same of you:

 

If a 16 year old scout revealed he was gay, would you abide by the BSA policy? If a boy witnessed his Christian beliefs, would you be respectful to his right to do so? As I recall you state your particular views on the rights of gays to particpate in BSA quite strongly. Do you act on that in ways that are contrary to BSA policies?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rooster7]

For that matter, try page 54, in the explanation of Scout Law Reverent: "A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others....

 

I don't have my Scout book in front of me, and frankly, I don't have it memorized either. Regardless of what the Scout book says, this is how I've always interpreted BSA's policy of religious tolerance -

 

We are expected to respect the rights of others to believe in something different than what we believe in as the truth. For example, Hindu's believe that cows are sacred. I respect their right to believe that, but I'm still eating my cheeseburger for lunch. If I truly respected the beliefs of others, I would not eat that cheeseburger. In short, while I respect the rights of everyone to believe in whatever they so chose, I don't respect the actual beliefs. If Scouting allowed pagans to become Scouts, would you expect me to respect the belief that trees are deities? You've criticized ScoutParent for being critical of a religious belief (or to be accurate, a scientific theory that contradicts her faith). You claim she (as well as others on this boardno doubt, myself included) is being intolerant and disrespectful of others. I disagree. She's only voicing her opinion about a belief. She has not persecuted anyone. Nor has she denied anyone their right to their beliefs.

 

If you think my definition of respect is too narrow, then you should change your actions to fit your words. Otherwise, your words will ring hallow. Here are a few suggestions -

 

Do not allow folks in your troop to eat beef (to show respect for the Hindus)

 

Do not go camping on Saturday or Sunday (to show respect for Jews, Mormons, and Christian denominations)

 

Plan outings so that Muslims have an opportunity to pray seven times each day.

 

There's a zillion other ways you can prove your respectbut you get my point. If you have to respect the belief itself as opposed to the person, than it becomes rather problematic. Not to mention, counterintuitive to your own faith. My God is a jealous God. He does not want me respecting any other Gods. If page 54 actually says what you've noted, than I hope BSA makes a text change soon. I refuse to believe that it was their intent to demand that we all become Universalists. If by "respect", BSA means we should make allowances for individuals to practice their faith, that's all fine and well. However, they cannot possibly mean we must suppress our beliefs and accept others as being valid. That just doesn't make sense.

 

"Denver Jim" I find your remarks to be without much forethought. In the name of religious tolerance, you criticize people who debate the validity of evolution. Yet, in your eyes, in order for these same folks to redeem themselves, they must keep their religious viewpoints to themselves. To that, I simply say - Your logic amazes me. You would have made George Orwell proud.

 

My faith is strong enough to hear the opinion of others. Neither my God, nor my faith, are harmed when others express opinions that oppose mine. If the faith of others is just as real (and not just a pretence to be offended), then one must assume that their faith is just as strong, and their God just as powerful. They should be able to withstand and tolerant my right to express my opinions. Furthermore, should we not agree, my faith and my pride does not compel me to persecute these people. I respect their right to believe as they chose. I am able to tolerant their unbelief.* My faith allows me to respect, and even to befriend, most people. I expect people with different faiths than mine to respect me in the same manner.

 

*Now, some folks may take offense to this statement. To them I ask - Does your faith represent what you believe to be true about God and the world? Or perhaps it's merely a moral code or something that you consider to be a part of your culture? If it's the former, then you should not take offense. If you know the truth and I don't, then pity medon't be "offended". If it's the latter, perhaps you take offense because you do not want to confront another truthyou have no real faith. You don't know God.

 

TJ, if you're trying to relate this topic "back to Scouting", then you should drop your Don Quiote act and leave homosexuality out of the discussion. BSA has a firm policy statement. ScoutParent doesn't need to justify her opinion on this issue.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[littlebillie]

Rooster7,

 

Maybe this comment - "Hindu's believe that cows are sacred. I respect their right to believe that, but I'm still eating my cheeseburger for lunch. If I truly respected the beliefs of others, I would not eat that cheeseburger..." could use this change.

 

"...If I truly respected the beliefs of others, I would make sure that any Scouting activity that served cheeseburgers [or porkchops, say] would also have an alternative dish for those whose dietary requirements kept them away from the cheeseburgers."

 

Now THAT'S tolerance and respect. When a Jewish Cub Scout is confronted with a pepperoni pizza, let's face it - that's ignorant at the least, and really ugly at its worst!

 

just a perspective

[littlebillie]

ScoutParent

 

"I can say, in good conscience that Evolution is an engine of evil because I see that God tells us

anything taking the glory for his creations is evil."

 

Evolution is not intended to take the 'glory for His creations.' It can't - it's a theory, it describes a process that God Himself put into place!!! From the perspective of those who find no unresolvable conflict between Religion and Science, it is no different than Erosion. Does the fact that we understand erosion diminish the grandeur of the Grand Canyon, for example? Or does it expand our appreciation for the magnificence of His Work?

 

Why is Erosion different than Evolution? He let's us see and name and understand one tool - why not another? We can measure radioactive decay - does that mean that God is diminished in any way, or can it mean that He's thought of absolutely everything?

 

Why choose to limit God, when He Himself has seen fit to set the glory of His Creation on many canvasses, great AND small?

 

just a perspective...

[Rooster7]

"...If I truly respected the beliefs of others, I would make sure that any Scouting activity that served cheeseburgers [or pork chops, say] would also have an alternative dish for those whose dietary requirements kept them away from the cheeseburgers."

 

I agree with that definition of respect. It doesn't force me to respect the actual beliefonly the desire of the individual to be faithful to his religion. I have no problem with that concept. However, if you carry this out for every member and every faith, a troop could expend a lot money and other resources trying to show their respect to all. It's not likely, but given a large troop with a healthy cross section of religions, it's definitely a possibility.

 

Now THAT'S tolerance and respect. When a Jewish Cub Scout is confronted with a pepperoni pizza, let's face it - that's ignorant at the least, and really ugly at its worst!

 

I agree again. For the most part, people should be conscientious and make accommodations whenever possible. However, I feel compelled to point out, there are a couple of double standards or double-minded philosophies in practice today that flies in the face of this idea.

 

One, I find it more than a bit ironic that some individuals (not necessarily you) expect folks to be aware of these kinds of religious practices/beliefs and to make the appropriate accommodationsyet at the same, expect people to keep their mouths shut when it comes to discussing their religious beliefs. Personally, I'd like to see a little more discussion in Scouting about faith. It's talked about in the most generic terms, but no one wants to have an open discussion about religiononly that they "believe in God". God forbid if someone actually said out loud exactly what his or her faith professed to be true. We can't have any of that. Someone might get upset. As Scouts and Scouters, we claim to be open-minded. After all, we allow almost anyone to join. Sure, but what's not said, most everybody wants folks to keep their religious beliefs to themselves. That doesn't sound tolerant to me.

 

Two, from my experience, the same folks that will remember to buy the mushroom pizza for the Jewish kids will blow off conservative Christians who are offended by Halloween. I've seen this before, even on this board. For some, usually other Christians with strong liberal leanings, there is great concern displayed when it comes to accommodating the beliefs of minorities. That's great and I appreciate the fact that people don't want others to feel alienated. On the other hand, I've seen these same folks ignore or rebuke conservative Christians that voice concerns regarding their teachings. Apparently, a number of folks believe, if one professes to be a Christian, he/she is entitled to access the legitimacy of religious beliefs professed by other Christians. If it was merely for debate, I wouldn't have a problem with this attitude. In fact, it's a good thing that Christians challenge each other. However, these folks have set themselves up to be the watchdog of the "majority". Majority is in quotes because I'm not sure liberal Christians and conservative Christians can even claim that they are practicing the same religion. Quite often, the conservative Christian is labeled as narrow minded or bigoted. Why? Because their literal, evangelical beliefs conflict with someone's liberal interpretation. If we are going to be concerned about having alternative foods for the Hindu (i.e., tuna vice hamburger) and the Jew (i.e., mushroom vice pepperoni), then what do you tell the conservative Christian who's beliefs won't allow him to participate in a troop's Halloween party? Let's be consistent. Either we accommodate everyone or no one. If this idea is extended to some (minority or not), but not to others, it loses all of its moral authority.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[OldGreyEagle]

Rooster,

Good points...

 

In out troop we have one Hindu and one Jewish scout. Each is in a different patrol, one a First Year and the other an older boys patrol. The Hindu scout's patrol doesnt have to swear off meat, but has to have alternatives on the menu. The Jewish boy's patrol doesnt have to swear off pork, but also has to have an alternative. Now if these scout were in the same patrol, the permutations could get interesting...

 

I would define respect for another's religion as saying you are free to practice what you wish and to be free of insults or criticism of it AS LONG AS you extend the same courtesy to me.

 

I dont stop eating beef or pork on camp outs with the Hindu scout or jewish boy, but then again, I dont seek them out and make "yummy" noises (see Young Frankenstein) next to them either.

 

Right now with two scouts on such dietary restrictions I dont see a problem. But it wouldnt take long I can see, for a real issue if more and different diets were added.

 

Then again, we have a scout who has dietary restrictions based on a medical condition.I think if its a food group, he is allergic to it. From milk, to eggs, chocolate (he does eat carob) to fruit juice I am not sure what he can eat (personally I am an omnivore) and we accomodate him. Well, actually his family provides his food and we keep it with the troop stuff marked for him. That may be the answer if dietary restricitons become a real problem. The patrols publish a menu and if you cant eat it, bring your own (with a compensatory reduction ins activity fee since you are providing your own food)

 

You know, this respecting diversity could be a real problem

 

[littlebillie]

"You know, this respecting diversity could be a real problem"

 

I say to you, sir - TURKEY! The OTHER other white meat - and the dark!

 

Turkey chili - the answer to nearly everything. Well, there IS that beans issue, but there too, we can find out how much we all have in common!

 

Seriously, y'all, poultry is a great way around a lot of issues. Vegetarian requirements are something else, but most vegetarians I know take far less offense at all of this than the carnivores.

 

Hmmm....